What is the impact of parents sharing content of their children online?
What’s the impact of parents sharing content of their children online? And what rights do children have in this space?
In this episode, Jessica is joined by Dr Anna Bunn, Deputy Head of Curtin Law School and Tama Leaver, Professor of Internet Studies at Curtin University to discuss “sharenting” – the growing practice of parents sharing images and data of their children online. The three examine the social, legal and developmental impacts a life-long digital footprint can have on a child.
Dr Anna Bunn - Deputy Head and Senior Lecturer, Curtin Law School
Professor Tama Leaver, Internet Studies, Curtin University
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
Music: OKAY by 13ounce Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0 Music promoted by Audio Library.
You can read the full transcript for the episode at
Jessica Morrison (00:00):
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better. I'm Jessica Morrison. The practice of parents sharing content of their kids online is so widespread, it's spawned, no pun intended, its own term, sharenting.
Jessica Morrison (00:18):
But what's the impact of parents and others creating this digital footprint, and what rights do children having this space? To discuss this topic with me today are two guests, Dr. Anna Bunn from the Curtin Law School and Tama Leaver, professor of Internet Studies at Curtin University. Thank you both for coming in today.
Dr Anna Bunn (00:36):
Thanks for having us.
Professor Tama Leaver (00:36):
Jessica Morrison (00:37):
So firstly, are we too naive when it comes to sharing pictures of our children online?
Dr Anna Bunn (00:43):
I think some people probably are, but I think most parents are probably aware of the need to be careful about the kind of images they share. And I think a lot of people do know about privacy settings, certainly not everyone. That said, I do think a lot of people don't actually understand exactly what data is collected.
Dr Anna Bunn (01:07):
For example, when you're putting images online, it can be the metadata behind the image, not just the image itself. So, images have lots of information. I'm not sure people necessarily understand all the information that can be ascertained.
Jessica Morrison (01:21):
What sort of information are we talking about?
Dr Anna Bunn (01:23):
Well, I mean, some images, for example, have location tags or time and date. Depends also, a lot of images posted to social media though, that information will be stripped out, not always of course, but that's not to say that the social media platforms don't get that information.
Dr Anna Bunn (01:48):
So there's lots of data. I'm not sure people always understand what's done with that, how it can be used. And it's interesting that there was a recent survey about community attitudes to privacy in Australia, and apparently parents are more worried about the privacy of their own children than about their children and their own privacy.
Dr Anna Bunn (02:10):
But I think there's a bit of a disconnect sometimes. I actually think parents probably think that their children are in danger of giving all of their personal information away through apps and their own social media use and probably don't think about what information about their children they're giving away. And so actually a couple of years ago in the UK, they did find that it's the parents that do the most sharenting, actually, are the ones that are most worried about privacy.
Jessica Morrison (02:41):
Interesting, isn't it? And what do you think about this? Are we too naive?
Professor Tama Leaver (02:45):
We are definitely too naive. And I think one of the most difficult things is the moments where we're most likely to share are the moments where we're less likely to be thinking about questions around privacy. I mean, I did a study looking at ultrasound photos and you are euphoric when you see that first ultrasound.
Professor Tama Leaver (02:58):
And this is first representation of what will be your child. You are euphoric. You want to share that. This is the good news. This is what social media is best at, is amplifying good news. But when we looked at ultrasound sharing, for example, a few years back, what we saw was people were taking a photo of the screen with the metadata embedded.
Professor Tama Leaver (03:16):
So we saw the mother's name, the predicted date of birth, the hospital you're in all. That sort of stuff that you don't think of as giving away private information for someone that doesn't even technically exist yet. And yet at the same time, that's really valuable information. And we also saw that parents were thinking, well, if it's in an image, it doesn't really count.
Professor Tama Leaver (03:34):
It's not really text and of course, it's trivial to turn that back into text and strip it out. So, I think one of the real difficulties is the moments we're most likely to share, are the moments where actually we need to be thinking most about other things as well, which is a big ask of people.
Jessica Morrison (03:46):
Absolutely. It's yeah, completely agree with that. You talked about ultrasounds. So we are seeing lots of child-related content from ultrasounds, to just daily life. My kid did this or my teenager achieved this, to children selling products. So what are the impacts of these, in sharing this type of content and yeah, what are the impacts on children?
Dr Anna Bunn (04:10):
Well, I think, there's all sorts of potential impacts, obviously. I mean, to some extent, it's going to depend on the nature of the images, obviously. So, where an image is embarrassing or particularly revealing, that's obviously going to potentially lead to feelings of embarrassment or mortification on the parts of the child in the image.
Dr Anna Bunn (04:29):
And of course, that can impact on their self-esteem. But even in an image that's benign, that we might think is absolutely fine or cute or whatever, the child in the image may not have the same view. And again, can feel sometimes quite distressed by that. So there's definitely the potential for images to impact on self-esteem.
Dr Anna Bunn (04:52):
And obviously, a low self-esteem overall, can have negative mental health outcomes in particular. So, that's one thing. Then I think that obviously, images can be readily used for teasing or even cyberbullying. Images can really easily be manipulated or doctored or used as a basis of a meme. So in that case, obviously again, there's the potential for an impact on a child's self-esteem.
Dr Anna Bunn (05:21):
And actually, cyberbullying that takes the form of images is one of the most impactful forms of cyberbullying that's consistently found to be the case. Then I think there's the sense of a loss of control. So where an image is widely distributed or a child feels like they can't control who sees it and on what terms, then that I think can be experienced as a loss of control or autonomy, which again can have an impact on self-esteem, and then there's the digital footprint.
Dr Anna Bunn (05:54):
So, Tama has already alluded to that, but I don't think we necessarily realise what a long trail of digital footprints is being created about children through all of these images. So yeah, there's just all sorts of different potential impacts.
Professor Tama Leaver (06:13):
There's also the challenge of, I guess, role modelling. So child influencers, so influencers who are children, whose parents are doing most of the work in the background, but they are selling products and often from birth onwards. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think when you see that modelling, especially when younger kids see that as the norm for what they imagine something they aspire to, then that can set quite difficult expectations if that's not something that's well discussed and understood.
Professor Tama Leaver (06:42):
So it's not intrinsically a bad thing, but certainly context can mean that expectations are set in quite difficult ways. And also the idea that our child influencer is really enjoying that. It's a difficult thing to know for sure. And that it's quite a fuzzy area in terms of the rules as well.
Jessica Morrison (06:58):
Well, you've just prompted my next question. We do see many influencers showcasing their children and a lot of an increase in parents promoting their children as brand representatives for the local companies. So, what are... You said it's a fuzzy area. What are the implications for these choices, Tama?
Professor Tama Leaver (07:16):
Well, I guess it's fuzzy in so much as, it's not really that we have some laws that cover children on television, where they're actually paid for what they're doing, but when you're an influencer, often the line between what you're paid for and what you're not, is very vague. And often we see parents start tagging their children in clothes that the parents have bought, because they want to look like an influencer and then over time it might become a paid thing or it might not.
Professor Tama Leaver (07:38):
But I think when the boundary between actual work and aspirational tagging isn't clear, then it's difficult to see, when is this paid work? When should the law start saying, "Well, this is actual labour. There should be rules that say you don't work more than X amount in a day," and so on and so forth.
Professor Tama Leaver (07:56):
So that stuff really isn't covered well by the law yet. And even in terms of best practice, it's only this year that the Australian Advertising Standards have actually started to say, "You really do need to label anything where money has been exchanged for this to appear." So I think it's an evolving area, but at the same time, I mean, that's true of in the influencer culture more broadly. I think people really don't always know what's an ad and what's not. And I think when kids are in the middle of that, it makes it even more difficult.
Jessica Morrison (08:24):
Complicates it more, absolutely. Do you have any thoughts on the children-
Dr Anna Bunn (08:29):
No, I mean, I completely agree with that. I just think that obviously, when the parents control the identity, they're shaping the identity in a very public forum and obviously that's going to have implications down the track for the child.
Jessica Morrison (08:44):
Because I suppose as a toddler, they can't communicate really other than chucking a few tantrums, but they can't communicate and give consent really. Is that where it comes down to?
Professor Tama Leaver (08:54):
And it's an evolving thing. I mean, the most highly successful person on YouTube in terms of making money was Ryan from Ryan's toy reviews, who was making something like $20 million a year from unboxing videos of toys and other things. And both of his parents basically left the work employment they're in, to manage him and his account.
Professor Tama Leaver (09:12):
So, I mean, yes, he's a high watermark example, but when your entire family's income is dependent on you as a child doing things on YouTube or Instagram or TikTok, it certainly changes the nature of what you're recording and how that's framed within your family, when your parent is both your producer, your manager and your mum.
Jessica Morrison (09:30):
That's it. What reactions have we seen from older children to content that has been shared online? And can it create a divide between parents and their kids? Something Gwyneth Paltrow would-
Dr Anna Bunn (09:41):
That's actually good. That's the example that's spun to my mind as well, but I mean, I definitely think there can be a divide. Well in Australia, it's not surprising, we haven't seen cases because children don't really have any legal footing upon which to bring legal action against their parents, just for sharing images online, but certainly in other countries, there have been a couple of cases where children have got to a certain age and then decided to sue their parents for content that's posted online.
Dr Anna Bunn (10:13):
But those cases are few and far between and obviously depends on the jurisdiction, but fairly recent research, out of the UK though, but has shown a lot of children across all age ranges, a large percentage of them do feel quite stressed and anxious about the amount of material that their parents are sharing online. So I definitely think there is room for tension or turbulence, yeah.
Jessica Morrison (10:45):
I mean, also we're talking about what the parents are sharing currently, but what about the things that they've shared when, I take it back to the age of a toddler who can't really essentially give consent?
Dr Anna Bunn (10:56):
I always come back to a personal story, which is actually, I remember being at a family Christmas. I was probably eight years old and, showing my age, but this is the day before even the internet was really thought of. And they had this cine film with these photos of my sister and I, and there was one of me completely naked as a four-year-old going down the garden slide.
Dr Anna Bunn (11:22):
That's a cute photo and I've actually shown it in presentations now, because now I have no problem with it. But I can tell you when that was displayed at a family gathering, I was mortified. So I do sometimes go back to that and think, how would I feel now, if that was my eight-year-old self now in the world of social media. And I know from my children's own experience that, I'm respectful of them now, because that horrifies them too. Not that I've ever done. I don't do that.
Jessica Morrison (11:53):
Professor Tama Leaver (11:54):
It does lead to that quite difficult question of, when you start having those conversations? At what age is a kid old enough to actually understand if you're saying, "Are you comfortable with me sharing this on Instagram?" I can have that conversation with my 12-year-old and my nine-year-old, but I've got a six-year-old and a three-year-old and for them, it's a pretty abstract thing that they don't really understand.
Professor Tama Leaver (12:13):
But at the same time, I'm trying to get into the practice of any time I've taken something, and yes my Instagram is private, so it's not a huge audience, but still I'm trying to get them to think about giving consent. So, even if it's not something they always understand, is something where they get used to the fact that they should be asked.
Professor Tama Leaver (12:28):
And I think even if they don't fully understand what that means yet, getting those habits built and getting parents used to the idea that, they're the ones that they need to teach those habits, that's something that at least we can start to do.
Dr Anna Bunn (12:41):
Sorry, I think that's a really great point actually, because laws can only go so far and what really matters is the norms around it. So I think that's a really good point.
Jessica Morrison (12:50):
Tama, you just touched on something then, around having private and open profiles within, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, whatever. So, how does that come into this conversation? Because surely if, like you said yours is private, mine is private too. I only have friends and family and people that I know on there. So I would think that me sharing some... I think they're cute and I want to share what my son is doing, but how does that play in this conversation?
Professor Tama Leaver (13:15):
I mean, I think we have to recognise that social media exists for a reason. People sharing things with people that they know, and there is real joy and value to be brought in doing that. I guess, you need to know enough about those tools though, to try and make some good judgements for yourself.
Professor Tama Leaver (13:28):
So there's private, which is private from the rest of the world and so much so they might not be able to see my account, but it's not private from Instagram or Facebook, which are hoovering up all of that data and building a profile of my child, well before they might ever have their own account. So there's those two levels to it.
Dr Anna Bunn (13:41):
There's two, yeah-
Professor Tama Leaver (13:42):
You have to make a decision for yourself, whether you're comfortable with that. I do like sharing occasionally, the high points of my children's life. I've got family all over the world and I'm not likely to see them again in a hurry. So, especially in COVID time, it's even more important to have those channels.
Professor Tama Leaver (13:56):
But at the same time, I'm meticulous about setting privacy settings as high as I can make them for the most part. And so I think that's at least something that parents should be aware of those options, even if they don't choose to use them. They should know what they're choosing not to use at least.
Jessica Morrison (14:11):
Well put. Anna, what current legal protections do Australian children have? You have touched on this, that it doesn't seem to me many. Yeah. What protections do they have when it comes to their data being posted online?
Dr Anna Bunn (14:22):
So, I guess the starting point is to just reiterate that there's no overarching right to privacy. And a lot of people are surprised, even lawyers, because I did a presentation to lawyers recently, and they were surprised, but you can't stop someone taking a photo of you or your child in the street and pretty much doing what they like with that.
Dr Anna Bunn (14:43):
So, we don't have very strong privacy protections yet, but of course there are laws that govern the way in which images are used and the kind of images that we can share. So of course, large organisations and public sector are governed by privacy laws and privacy principles. So, that regulates what they can do with images and personal information.
Dr Anna Bunn (15:07):
So it doesn't stop them collecting it, but that's why you see data policies and privacy policies on social media platforms, because they have to put them there. Then of course, there are laws which do protect children against certain types of content. So, not surprisingly images that are intimate, revealing, in which children are sexualized that usually a criminal offence, there's often civil penalties as well.
Dr Anna Bunn (15:36):
There's laws about surveillance. So to prevent people from being filmed or recorded in a private space. And then of course, you've got intellectual property laws as well. But the interesting thing about that is that, whilst you have quite strong protections in terms of what you own when you're the photographer of an image, of course, what we're talking about here, unless it's a selfie, usually it's not the child in the image who owns the copyright.
Dr Anna Bunn (16:04):
So, that's a massive issue. I would just say that there are some really good laws in Australia, which have come in, in the last few years through the eSafety Commissioner and the Online Safety Legislation, which protect children against cyberbullying. So there's a mechanism of reporting to the eSafety Commissioner, if there's cyberbullying material, which is, I think, a really good initiative.
Jessica Morrison (16:30):
What types of tools or in legal protections would you to see in the future for Australian children? I know that there's a take-down policy overseas is that-
Dr Anna Bunn (16:39):
Jessica Morrison (16:40):
Can you talk us through that?
Dr Anna Bunn (16:41):
So there are some overseas laws that I think that we can look to and should look to. So, the most obvious example is the GDPR, the General Data Protection Regulation, which relates to children in Europe and amongst other things, it does give children the right, in some cases, to object to the processing of their data or call for it to be removed.
Dr Anna Bunn (17:03):
It's not an absolute right and it's always going to be balanced against other considerations, freedom of expression and so on. But I do think that we should look to that and indeed, that's a recommendation that's come out of a recent report in Australia and the privacy laws are under review. So we'll see, watch this space.
Dr Anna Bunn (17:27):
There's been many inquiries, Law Reform Commission inquiries amongst others, that have recommended that we introduce a statutory right to privacy. We haven't seen that yet and again, whether that will come about in the latest review of privacy laws. I don't hold out that much hope, but I would like to see that there is some statutory protection against an invasion of privacy.
Dr Anna Bunn (17:52):
But even then, it's only likely to protect against just serious invasion. My own personal thinking is that perhaps we should even have stronger protections, where children can apply to someone like the eSafety Commissioner to request the take down of an image. And that would then be judged by reference to a whole range of considerations. So it would be difficult, it would be expensive, but it would certainly give back some control.
Jessica Morrison (18:25):
Thinking of the future, and you've just said, your personal thinking would be that mechanism, how would you think it would work? How old would the children have to be? I'm just curious, are we talking 16, are we talking 12? What are we-
Dr Anna Bunn (18:40):
That's a really good question, actually. I think, I mean, children have evolving capacity, which to some extent relates to their age, but it's not even just about age. I mean, every child is different, right? So, that's a good question.
Dr Anna Bunn (18:56):
I haven't got the answer to it, but I think we should definitely look to, for example, 14, we tend to think from the age of 14, children can be more informed about giving consent. I personally think, and you said the same about your own children, from a much younger age, they do have the capacity to understand and they should have the capacity to complain. I think the rule of thumb is, if a child is not happy about an image, not their parents necessarily, but if the child feels distressed or uncomfortable, then that's old enough.
Professor Tama Leaver (19:30):
And there's an onus then on both parents and the educational system to give kids the tools to express that. To be literate enough to be able to turn around and say, "I'm not really comfortable with that." I think that's one of the real challenges here. Is not just respecting it when it's said, but giving kids the tools that they could turn around and say, "Actually, I don't really want to have my photo taken right now, please don't."
Jessica Morrison (19:50):
Do you think this is a part of the future of this space?
Professor Tama Leaver (19:52):
Absolutely. I think the future of this area relies on education and literacy more than the law just doing the work. I think that the law is something that comes when we've already made a huge problem. And I think if we can get kids, educators, parents, all on the same page, all literate about best practice, about consent, about... And you're right, copyright is a broken system. Copyright gives all the rights to the person holding the camera, pressing that button, which doesn't really make sense in an era where it's so much easier to take the photo, share the photo, distribute the photo, alter the photo.
Dr Anna Bunn (20:24):
Sorry, just to interrupt you, but there's a really interesting thing that comes out of that, which is the notion of moral rights. So if you paint a picture and you're the artist, even if you sell a copyright, you attained the moral rights. Now, that doesn't allow you to make money off the painting because you've sold the copyright, but you do have a certain say in, what's done with it.
Dr Anna Bunn (20:44):
In the sense that you can stop your image used, for example, in a campaign that is totally against your values, for example. So I think maybe something like that would be a really good idea here as well, so that there's not the full extent of control that you get with copyright, but still some element of control or say in what your image is used for.
Professor Tama Leaver (21:06):
Absolutely. And I guess, I mean, if we are looking to the future and we're saying, "What would we love to have happen rather than what's practical?" I mean, there has been a discussion for some years about the idea of the right to be forgotten. The idea that at a certain age, maybe 18, you could turn around and say, I'd like my entire data history wiped.
Professor Tama Leaver (21:20):
I want the rights that my parents and my grandparents would have had to have no trace, no track when I turned into an adult, so I can shape myself a new. I understand how incredibly impractical that is in terms of the way that we keep records and everything, but as an ideal, that's certainly something to strive towards.
Professor Tama Leaver (21:36):
To the idea that when you become an adult, you can go, "I don't want all the things I've done as a 12-year-old or a 14-year-old or a 16-year-old haunting me as I apply for jobs as a 25-year-old." That doesn't seem unreasonable. It might be difficult, but it's certainly something to aspire to.
Jessica Morrison (21:50):
Yeah, the practicality of it, how that would work is a tad difficult at this point.
Dr Anna Bunn (21:54):
And I think that's why, when you ask what you really want from the future, it's also got to involve this technological advancements and the architecture that enables us to achieve some of these things, hopefully.
Jessica Morrison (22:06):
Is the problem though in this, is that technology is just going at a speed of light. It's hard to keep up.
Professor Tama Leaver (22:12):
It's not that the technology wouldn't be there, it's that the people that own and manage the data are largely large corporations with no real interest in doing that. I think we really don't have strong government regulation of the big tech sector yet. Just in Australia in the last few months, we saw Facebook just turn services off because they want it to have a hissy fit.
Professor Tama Leaver (22:33):
So I think there is some tension there and I think, in Australia and a lot of the digital platforms in Korea and things like that, there is some energy towards regulation, but whether it will ever get that far is another question.
Jessica Morrison (22:44):
Interesting to see. Tama, you touched on the Digital Child and it's something that you're focusing on at the moment. Can you tell us a little bit about your involvement with the ARC Centre of Excellence for the Digital Child and how listeners might want to get involved?
Professor Tama Leaver (23:00):
Sure. So the ARC Centre of Excellence for the Digital Child is a new Australia-wide research centre, which has come into existence this year. It's been funded for at least seven years. One of the things that, that allows us to do, is a longitudinal study of Australian families and children.
Professor Tama Leaver (23:14):
Looking at how their practices shift from birth all the way across the early years up to the age of seven, which is unprecedented in Australia. We just don't have that longitudinal data, which is great, but also allows a whole lot of researchers to come together and try and talk about best practice in this field.
Professor Tama Leaver (23:30):
So for example, the program that I'm most involved in, the Connected Program looks at the way the children's data moves in the Australian system, what boundaries there are, what practices we would like to change and it does involve some looking to the future to go, "What could we try and fix?"
Professor Tama Leaver (23:44):
So having a group of researchers, including Curtin, all working together on these questions, is a really good thing. And I think quite exciting for Curtin to be part of asking those questions and hopefully, positing some best practice answers.
Jessica Morrison (23:58):
What inspired you both to research this area?
Dr Anna Bunn (24:02):
So for me, it was actually an incident that happened at my son's school when he was in kindy, where one of his mates was moving back to Malaysia and the mum requested a class photo to go on her Facebook page. And she did the right thing and asked all the parents if they'd mind, and this actually led to some parents being completely up in arms about the very prospect of her doing this.
Dr Anna Bunn (24:27):
And it just got me thinking, little do they know, because actually she didn't have to ask. So, from there I think, just stemmed my interest in looking at rights and also, the balance between obviously, privacy being important, but also just being realistic and the fact that we are in this real world of social media.
Professor Tama Leaver (24:51):
For me, it was a little bit more abstract. So when I studied social media, one of the things I noticed is we always presume that the best solution is to give more control to the person using social media. So more settings, more buttons to press, more things that you can be responsible for.
Professor Tama Leaver (25:05):
And I was really interested in, well, what about the people that can't make those informed choices? And I started looking at both people that have recently died and very, very young children, because though both categories where there's a lot of data being generated, but there was no possible way that those entities could take control of it.
Professor Tama Leaver (25:21):
And I think looking through that lens just led me to think, well, there's so much data about kids being generated and so little questioning of what control that child will ever have over the data and so little literacy on behalf of a lot of parents about where that data's going. And so for me, that's the big overarching question. And we still don't really have good answers, but we at least are asking the questions now.
Jessica Morrison (25:41):
Tama, interestingly, you just mentioned life and death. You did a podcast with The Future Of, I think it was 2019, the future of life and death on social media, where we're going into a lot about that. So listeners, if you want to hear about that more, search us and Life and Death on Social Media is the episode title. So thank you for that reminder.
Professor Tama Leaver (26:00):
Jessica Morrison (26:01):
Now, just one last question. What's best practice when it comes to sharing children related content online.
Dr Anna Bunn (26:09):
Well, I won't say don't do it, because I think it is part of our life and we should do it, but I think it's really just about being mindful. And probably my overriding thing is just ask your child, at least when they're of a certain age. As Tama has said before, even if they don't fully understand what you're asking, I think it's best practice. And when they get older, if they say, "You know what, mum? I really hate that picture." Then consider taking it down.
Professor Tama Leaver (26:37):
I completely agree with that. And I do think, as best practice, we need to try and be literate on tools that we're using, where we... I know that that social media companies send us these terms and conditions that we'll never have time to read and we agree to all sorts of things, but at the same time, taking the time to know at least how privacy settings work and if there's no reason to share publicly, don't.
Professor Tama Leaver (26:58):
Whack everything to fully private, unless you have a good reason not to, but also be mindful that just being private on social media stops other people seeing that, it doesn't stop those companies hoovering up that data and building profiles of your children. If you're uncomfortable with that, there's very few social media tools that you can actually use and you might end up reverting to something like email, which I do occasionally as well.
Professor Tama Leaver (27:19):
It's not the easiest thing in the world to do, but it's important to be aware that we don't know what will happen with that data history for kids, because we just don't have generations that have lived long enough to see what a history from birth to eighty years old would look like. But we do know that that data is not going away. And we do know that parents are the first arbiters of their children's digital history. We need to take some responsibility in thinking about that.
Jessica Morrison (27:44):
Fantastic. Thank you both so much. Such an interesting topic. I think, whether you're a parent or a carer or just someone who likes and sees content of their friends and families, kids shared online, it's certainly a very interesting and timely topic. So, thank you both so much for coming in. We really appreciate your knowledge on the topic. So, thank you.
Professor Tama Leaver (28:03):
Jessica Morrison (28:05):
You've been listening to The Future Of, a podcast powered by a Curtin University. Leave us a comment wherever you find this episode, we'd love to hear from you. And if you've got something out of today's episode, please rate us. Bye for now.