Will bitcoin, ethereum and other cryptocurrencies replace fiat money?
In 2009, the world’s first online cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, was launched using blockchain technologies. Now, thousands of cryptocurrencies are in circulation, including some backed by the Dubai and Chinese governments.
In this episode, our new host Amelia is joined by Associate Professor Vidy Potdar and Professor Saurav Dutta, to discuss how widespread cryptocurrencies will be in the future.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar: Laboratory – businesslaw.curtin.edu.au/our-research/centres-and-institutes/blockchain-research-and-development-laboratory/, Crypto fund – payments.curtin.edu.au/crypto-donations/
Professor Saurav Dutta: Books – amazon.com/Saurav-K.-Dutta/e/B00E6JFXVW%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share, Curtin School of Accounting – businesslaw.curtin.edu.au/curtin-business-school/accounting/
BBC Newsnight: How does Bitcoin mining work?
Curtin University: Curtin announces new blockchain lab to research disruptive technologies
Curtin University: Curtin’s new cryptocurrency scholarship fund a boost for PhD students
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of the university.
Music: OKAY by 13ounce Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0 Music promoted by Audio Library
You can read the full transcript for the episode here.
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.
Amelia Searson (00:09):
I'm Amelia Searson. In today's episode of The Future Of, we'll be looking into cryptocurrency. I'm excited to learn from our guests today because cryptocurrency isn't really a part of my life. The only experience I've had with it was years ago, when my uncle tried to convince the family to hop on the Bitcoin bandwagon. There's likely a lot of stigma still surrounding the concept of virtual currencies because lots of people don't like the idea of not having physical cash. But with the COVID-19 pandemic causing many businesses to become cashless, will cryptocurrency triumph, or at least become part of the everyday norm? With me to explain the future of cryptocurrencies are two special guests. We have Associate Professor Vidy Potdar, who is the director of Curtin University's Blockchain Research and Development Lab. And we have the head of Curtin School of Accounting, Professor Saurav Dutta, who has done extensive work in the Australian and US finance sectors. Thank you both for coming in today.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (01:05):
Thank you very much.
Professor Saurav Dutta (01:05):
Thank you for having us.
Amelia Searson (01:08):
So Vidy, I think there are many people who don't really understand what cryptocurrency and blockchain are, myself included. Can you explain what both are in layperson's terms?
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (01:18):
Okay. So to explain in very simple words, blockchain is a database. We have used many different types of databases whenever we work, but there's one very unique feature about blockchain that makes it a very different database. And that feature is, in a blockchain type of a database, you can add information, but you cannot delete information. So that very feature makes it very powerful for a number of applications, including cryptocurrency. So that is the core difference between blockchain and any other databases. So what is the relation between cryptocurrency and blockchain? Cryptocurrency is one of the applications or use cases of blockchain. And when cryptocurrency started, that was, say, 10 years ago, that was the first application. So it came out as cryptocurrency, not as blockchain, but later companies and people realised that this is a technology that can be used in many other sectors and many other industries. And that's when blockchain started to emerge from cryptocurrency. So ideally blockchain is a technology that drives cryptocurrencies.
Amelia Searson (02:39):
And what are some of those industries that you mentioned?
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (02:42):
Blockchain now has been used in many different industries. Personally, I am very actively working in the area of supply chain management and how blockchain can provide traceability and provenance of the goods that we buy. For example, when you go shopping in, say, Woolworths or Coles, if you buy any food, you don't really know where it was grown, when it was grown, how long it has been on the shelves. So all that information now is possible with blockchain technology. So people can pick up their phone, scan a product and get a complete history of what you're going to have.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (03:16):
Blockchain is also used in a number of other industries, say finance and accounting, corporate governance, travel. I mean, any industry where there is a need for transparency of information, you can apply blockchain technology. Even in universities, there are applications where blockchain can be used, or if you're doing research. One of the challenges in research is the validity of your data. So you collect some data and you publish your research papers. Later down the track, if somebody wants to access your data, they may or may not get it. But if you have that information stored on a blockchain, it is there forever.
Amelia Searson (03:58):
Right. And Saurav how is decentralising power an exciting aspect of this technology?
Professor Saurav Dutta (04:05):
So just continuing as to what Vidy said, so as part of this blockchain technology and cryptocurrency, the whole idea basically came in terms of to facilitate cryptocurrency or digital economics, you needed an extensive record keeping system. One of the key feature of cryptocurrency or bitcoin, as you mentioned, was that to remove the central authority that kept records. So in a normal banking transaction, your bank keeps record as to how much money you have. You may keep your independent records, but if you disagree, the bank wins. But in the digital currency that needed a mechanism where such records of who owns what has to be kept in a decentralised fashion or a distributed fashion. So by distributed fashion, what it means is that there is no one single custodian of truth. But the truth is capped at multiple locations simultaneously.
Professor Saurav Dutta (05:10):
So the benefit of having such distributed record keeping system is you have multiple copies of the record that are updated on a real time basis. And hence there is no threat for any one of these locations to go dark. Even if one of these locations go dark, there are other locations that are still alive, hence the records are always maintained. So that's really the key part of a distributed record keeping system. Then obviously the other small benefits are there. For example, if there was only a single custodian of record keeping, they could easily tamper with the record or change the record. But if the same record is kept at 25 different locations, then somebody who wants to tamper that record has to go to all the 25 locations and change it simultaneously. That almost becomes impossible. And that is what gives blockchain the key advantage, critical advantage as we call it is that of immutability.
Professor Saurav Dutta (06:14):
So what immutability means is, once recorded, and as Vidy mentioned, that you can only add and not delete. So immutability basically means that once the record is kept, it cannot be changed, hence that prevents fraud in many situations. In situations which are subject to fraud, those can basically be prevented. One of the key things as you asked us, what other industries. So one of the key areas of where blockchain can help is the age old industry of property records. Because in many developing nations, what happens is the property records are not kept properly. And get changed by government officials because of the low literacy rates. But if the property records are kept in a blockchain, then multiple records, multiple places keep the same version of truth, hence changing one record does not change the facts. So that would be one of the areas of property record keeping where blockchain is actually very useful.
Amelia Searson (07:19):
So you mentioned banks before and how they only have, I guess the one record, whereas blockchain would have multiple, do you think that banks would implement that in the future?
Professor Saurav Dutta (07:31):
Banks, they would not have a choice, but to implement it in the future. However, the banks tend to resist it because banks make money by being the middleman. And if there is a technology that comes in, which removes the middleman, that cuts into the profits of the bank. So most notably Jamie Dimon, who was the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, one of the largest top five banks in the world, back in 2016, 2017, had warned all of his traders, that he would fire the person on the spot if he found them trading on bitcoins or any kind of digital currency that was primary because of the threat that he felt from this new technology. But most recently in 2020, three years later, Jamie Dimon has reversed himself and is saying JPMorgan Chase is now going to implement blockchain technology in their own banking system. So yes, there is obviously some resistance to the technology, but if the technology is powerful enough, then people have to adapt and adopt these technologies into their business models. So that's why the banks are going with it.
Amelia Searson (08:41):
Oh good. Because obviously it's very important to reduce things like fraud in people's lives. So moving on to energy, Vidy, there have been concerns about the amount of energy used in bitcoin mining with estimates I read suggesting the network consumes as much electrical energy annually as a country the size of Belgium. Do you think that these concerns are going to increase?
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (09:05):
Yeah. So in terms of the energy consumption that happens with cryptocurrencies, that primarily happens with very large networks, such as Bitcoin. And the reason why that happens... Let's get into the reason first and then get into what could be done about it. The reason why there is such a large energy consumption is to ensure that the Bitcoin network or cryptocurrency network is secure. Because you don't know who is part of the network. There is no 100-point ID check that you do before you get onto a Bitcoin network. Anyone who can download the Bitcoin network, they can be part of the network because there are literally no entry barriers to who can come into the network. So when that happens, there is a very high chance that people may behave in a way that can affect others.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (10:04):
So they may behave in a wrong way. To prevent that from happening, there is the concept that is added into blockchain, or say Bitcoin, which is about mining a bitcoin. In simple terms, what it means is you have to solve a mathematical equation or formula, which is very difficult to solve. It is simple, but it takes a long time to get the answer. Just imagine you have to multiply a very long number times another very long number. Although it is simple, if you have the time to do that, but it just takes a lot of time. And because it is taking a lot of time, it is consuming that much amount of energy. The reason why this concept or this logic is incorporated in bitcoin or cryptocurrencies is to prevent people from manipulating the network. If it was a simple calculation, people could have calculated it and then affected the system. Because it is difficult, you cannot go back a lot to change it. So that is the reason for the high energy consumption.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (11:16):
So is it necessary, I guess, in a public blockchain like Bitcoin, I think it is necessary because we have to maintain the network the way it works. Can it be improved? Definitely it can be. So that is one of the very topical areas of research all around the world: how can we make mining energy efficient? So it doesn't take as much energy like you said, what, the country, the power consumption of Belgium, was it? Yeah. So that is how it is at the moment. And we are progressing towards a time where this whole mining process would become much more energy efficient.
Amelia Searson (11:58):
Interesting. And you mentioned how important it is to ensure blockchain is secure, and that leads well into my next question, which is, is it prone into hacking?
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (12:08):
Okay. So I think blockchain at such is not prone to hacking. What probably could be hacked or could be attacked is other cryptocurrencies, other tokens. And if you would have seen, there have been a number of very major hacks in the past, where companies have lost millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars. And what actually was lost was the identities of how you access those digital tokens or bitcoins or cryptocurrencies. The system itself is very secure, but if the person who is holding the coins does not take sufficient care in ensuring a very robust, a secure system. Basically, if you go a little bit more technical, we use private keys and public keys. That is actually what protects your assets or cryptocurrencies. If you are negligent in securing these so-called passwords, I would say, they're not passwords, but they are something better than a password, but if you don't secure them, they are prone to attacks. And that's how people have lost a lot of money.
Amelia Searson (13:25):
Right. And from my understanding there's a finite number of bitcoins and there's less than 3 million of them left to be mined, what effect does limited supply have on the currency, Saurav?
Professor Saurav Dutta (13:37):
So sure. When Bitcoin was founded by Satoshi Nakamoto back in 2009, the whole idea was that he wanted to mine, so called "mine", about 21 million bitcoins. And you're absolutely right in saying that are less than 3 million to mine. That's because almost 18.5 Million have already been mined. But his proposal was to reduce the number of bitcoins mined progressively as we go along. So every four years it becomes half. So even though there's 21 million bitcoins that have to be in circulation, the total mined could be more because bitcoins do get stolen, they get lost. So bitcoins might be mined. And then the person who had the bitcoins died without leaving the past one of the private key to his descendants, and then they're lost forever.
Professor Saurav Dutta (14:35):
So having said that, it is basically about year 2140, that the last bitcoin would be mined. That's the projected thing. But as with everything else, the supply is limited. If the demand grows, the price of bitcoin actually will go up. And it had a peak back in 2017. This is the right time to be having this interview because bitcoin is again surging. It's closing in at about A$18,000 per bitcoin. Well, thinking about this as basically it was less than A$10,000 at the beginning of the year. So it has almost more than doubled during the year. And that's what would happen if the popularity of bitcoin continues and the supply is limited, the price would increase. But at the same time, the other kinds of cryptocurrencies might come in and replace Bitcoin.
Amelia Searson (15:33):
And what other cryptocurrencies are becoming popular?
Professor Saurav Dutta (15:35):
Ethereum or ether is actually one of the very popular cryptocurrencies. So that is trading at about A$800, A$850 right now. And that has peaked at about A$1000. So that's clearly much cheaper than using a bitcoin, which is about A$20,000. Additionally, there are other currencies such as Ripple, which allows cross-border transactions. There is a Litecoin, which allows for open source global payments. There is a tether, which is basically like a stable coin where the prices are not volatile. Instead, they are packed to a normal currency like US dollars, or Australian dollars, or Japanese yen. In addition, as you might know, that Facebook wanted to introduce their own currency called Libra. Well, that is not going through right now because of regulatory hiccups, but there are many such ventures that are going around the world.
Professor Saurav Dutta (16:35):
And this forms under a brand name that is called the DeFi are basically decentralised finance. So this is the growing area in finance and accounting is the DeFi, which is basically the same theme of crypto, but without the necessity of having a middleman or the bank keeping track of who owns how much. As of going back to this, what is the role of the back? The bank actually tells you, how much do you actually have? How much is your wealth? So you may say you are a billionaire, like our favourite president, Donald Trump says, but is he really a billionaire? Does he have a billion dollar in his bank account? Only the bank would say. He probably does not. But that's the role of the bank, is to monetise as to how much wealth people have. But as long as we have another system that tells you what wealth you have, that will work as well as the banks.
Professor Saurav Dutta (17:38):
And going to one of the examples and olden cultures in one of the islands of Micronesia, they used to have something called the Yap money, which was nothing but a limestone desk, which had the recording of who owned how much, or who owned the store. The wealth of the villages was dependent around who owned the bigger stone. And the ownership of the stone will change, even though the physical location of the stone might not. They would not move the stone, but everybody in the village would know who the stone belongs to. So that was one way of recording who owns how much wealth.
Amelia Searson (18:19):
And can anyone get involved in crypto or do you have to be already very rich like Donald Trump or be a part of a very big business or something?
Professor Saurav Dutta (18:30):
Interestingly, the first time I got introduced to crypto was in one of my classes. I was teaching a graduate class in New York called Contemporary Developments in Business and Accounting. And as part of that class, I used to ask students to do the end of the semester presentation on something that they thought was a new trend in finance and accounting. In 2009, that is when the Bitcoin was introduced, in 2009 when I was teaching that class, a student of mine actually mined a bitcoin in that class. At that time bitcoin was worth A$20. He spent about an hour doing it, using as much of energy as Vidy mentioned. I said, "A$20 an hour, you could get a below minimum job for that." So lo and behold, in 2017, that was worth A$20,000. But you couldn't find that computer, unfortunately.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (19:22):
Yeah. I think that has happened to many bitcoin miners because they didn't realise how valuable it would be. So they mined it, put it on their computer, they stored the computer, or just got too old and then just threw it. And there have been stories where people have actually went into these old recycling areas, picked up old hard discs and recovered bitcoins from that. So there have been examples where people, they would have been very rich, had they kept their all computers handy.
Professor Saurav Dutta (19:57):
So going back to your question, no, you don't have to be Donald Trump to actually invest in Bitcoin. You could be somebody who goes around the junkyards looking for old computers and you can become very rich. You can become the next Donald Trump.
Amelia Searson (20:12):
I would love to see Donald Trump doing that, just going around a junkyard, searching for some bitcoins. Vidy, what are some financial applications of blockchain that are being investigated by your lab? And why are organisations not adopting blockchain technologies?
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (20:27):
Okay. So we are currently working on, I would not say finance per se, but we're doing some work for charities and accountability for charity organisation. So that is one area that we have just recently started to explore, where the donors who donate money to a charity during any event would want to know how their donated funds are being used, or whether it reached the intended recipients or not. So that is a project that we had just started to work on. And I see there's lot of potential for such a solution because it just gives a lot of transparency to people. They know that the money that they have donated is actually being used for what they intended it to be used. So that way it has been very interesting.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (21:23):
Regarding the adoption, I think that is a very difficult question. And a lot of companies and researchers are working on that. In fact, one of my PhD students are looking at why the adoption of blockchain has been so slow. Some of the recent findings that we have come across is, the reasons why companies are not adopting blockchain is, firstly, there's lack of knowledge. There's ignorance. Like you pointed out that blockchains are very energy intensive. So that is only the case if it is a public cryptocurrency network. So if I were to set up a blockchain platform for an organisation, which would be more private network, it doesn't cost that much. It doesn't take that much energy. Firstly, that education piece is missing. So what we are trying to do now is to launch courses, to teach people, teach organisations of the reality of blockchain.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (22:27):
So once that happens, that hurdles cross, people can realise that or organisations can realise that, "Yeah, this is something that we can do. It's not all the hype or the myths that I knew about." So blockchain is practical, it's useful. But I guess it will take some time for that knowledge to flow through the right people. And then eventually adoption would happen. I think it is just a matter of time. And we have seen some early adopters like finance and accounting industries have been fast at adopting this technology. As we see that adoption happening, other industries and other sectors are realising the value of blockchain and they are jumping on board as well.
Amelia Searson (23:07):
That also leads well into my next questions. Obviously, both of you are working here at Curtin University. How are educational institutions employing this technology to improve learning?
Professor Saurav Dutta (23:19):
Yeah. So for example, at Curtin, what we have done is, we are going to launch that in semester one of 2021, we have created a virtual coin called the Curtin coin and similar to the bitcoin. But Curtin coin and a couple of other units and accounting units will play games where we'll assign these to our students so they can get a hands-on experience of using the virtual currency. Because again, unless you actually see it and use it, learning in abstract is limited. So it is almost like, if I'm teaching swimming in the middle of Sahara Desert, why am I even teaching swimming? Because they haven't even seen a swimming pool. So having a Curtin coin is building the virtual swimming pool, if you will, and people can go there and play and learn to use this by practising . What are the simple things that you might do is, say, for example, not exactly that game, but say you must have played Monopoly.
Amelia Searson (24:23):
Professor Saurav Dutta (24:24):
All of us have played Monopoly. So just imagine playing Monopoly, and that's a simple game. Eight-year olds play. So how difficult can that be? But just imagine playing monopoly without the cash, and every transaction you do, every roll of the die, every property you land in, every rent you pay, every rent you collect, every time you go to jail, you have to keep detailed records of each and every transaction for about five rounds. And at the end of the five rounds, all the six players of the cards have to match and all your balance sheet should balance. And if you can do that, that's an amazing feat. What we want to do is to show that similar games can be played much easily once you have the blockchain technology.
Professor Saurav Dutta (25:09):
So as Vidy said, the rate of adoption of blockchain is difficult because as with every new technology, I don't adopt it unless I understand it. And having such simple exercises would hopefully teach people or make them comfortable using the technology. And that would lead to the high adoption. So that's one of the things that we have been doing and I'm sure Vidy has been doing a few more elements.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (25:36):
Yeah. Within Curtin, we also launched a crypto fund where anyone who has crypto can donate some crypto to promote research or drive research in this area. More details can be found on Curtin website. But basically the intention behind setting up that fund was, firstly, students, we can promote the existence of such a fund within Curtin and to have those funds to research and develop new technologies using cryptocurrencies and blockchain. So if there's anybody here listening to this and have a few bitcoins to share, please email them to me.
Amelia Searson (26:19):
I'm curious how governments have responded to all of these, has the Australian government responded?
Professor Saurav Dutta (26:27):
The part with the government actually comes down to taxation. How does government make money? You get into a transaction in the tax. Yes, in general, the governments are not too happy with the bitcoin because those things happen outside of the regular currency, hence they're very difficult to tax. So government worldwide, especially China and US have been very much against having currencies like bitcoin. However, they still want to employ or harness the benefits of the technology. So they have found their own cryptocurrencies, or they have introduced their own cryptocurrency that is pegged to their currency. So smaller economies are trying to do that more often. Like Dubai, for example, has emCash, which is nothing more than having a mobile app on your phone or a card and all your daily purchases like buying a coffee, buying the newspaper can all be done cashless by using the emCash.
Professor Saurav Dutta (27:35):
Similarly, China is introducing, I think within a few weeks in the town of Suzhou, a similar giveaway of cryptocurrencies to get citizens more comfortable with this. So while they want to have the benefits of the technology, they also want to do what they do best, is collect taxes. Hence, they want to make sure that all of these are recorded transactions whereby the government gets to collect taxes and thereby they're introducing the quasi currency on a virtual form of their own currency in that platform.
Amelia Searson (28:12):
They want the best of both worlds.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (28:14):
Yeah. And I'd like to add to that, actually not from a crypto perspective, but from a blockchain perspective. So I'm on a National Blockchain Roadmap Steering Committee working group. And what we are looking at is how blockchain technology will transform Australian business operations, or businesses, or government activities, or every different sector for that matter. So there are different working groups that have been commissioned. So one is on supply chain, one is on law, one is on legal, one is on regulation. So I'm part of the regulation, what they call, RegTech, and looking at how blockchain can streamline regulatory compliance.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (29:01):
So that is one very strong initiative that is taken by the government. This is a follow-up from what was launched early last year when the National Blockchain Roadmap was relea sed. And in that roadmap there were three elements that were identified. One was supply chain, one was education, and third was identity or credentials. So those three areas were identified. And this is now the next phase where we are going into other areas where blockchain could be introduced in the Australian economy.
Amelia Searson (29:40):
Interesting. And I'd like to get both your perspectives on this next question, following the global pandemic that lots of countries are still grappling with, we've seen many businesses make the move from cash to just completely cashless. Do you see a future where cryptocurrencies will completely replace cash currencies?
Professor Saurav Dutta (30:03):
Well, I don't think cryptocurrencies will completely replace your fiat currencies, which is basically given by the governments. It'll never replace US dollars, Australian dollars, or RMB. The move from cash to cashless is happening with the mobile banking. But with the mobile banking, it is just the ease of transaction. When you're transacting, you're digitally transferring the money. However, the records are still being kept by the bank or the central authority. The cryptocurrencies differ in a very major way, where cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum do not even have a physical presence. They stay on your computer, not on your bank account. And that way, all the transactions that you have, the records are being kept on blockchain, which tells everyone how much you actually own and completely gets rid of the intermediary, that is the bank.
Professor Saurav Dutta (31:00):
So in general, the governments will not allow a complete move towards cryptocurrency, which they do not control. So they may come up with their own digital currencies, like emCash that Dubai has done or what China is doing. EmCash is very successful. Whereas Venezuela tried to do the same thing with Petro, but that was not successful. Nobody bought into it. But having said that, yes, there will obviously be an increase even in cryptocurrencies, in Bitcoin. For example, you asked the question a while back as to whether this cryptocurrencies are only for very rich people or can common people get into it.
Professor Saurav Dutta (31:44):
So interestingly, a lot of the millennials in Silicon Valley are choosing not to get paid in US dollars, but get paid in bitcoin. They are only about 20-, 25-year olds. Rather than getting a few thousand dollars, they're getting a fraction of a bitcoin as their monthly salaries. While that is the hip thing in Silicon Valley, I don't think that trend will catch on too much. And I don't think Vidy here will ever want to be paid in bitcoin as opposed to Aussie dollar, but Vidy on to you as to what your thoughts are.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (32:22):
Yeah. I think one thing that a lot of cryptocurrency owners, or I would not say owners, investors find is the term investor. People are buying cryptocurrencies as an investment vehicle. So if somebody ask me, "Would you like to pay for a cup of coffee on bitcoin", I would think twice because I may think that, "Oh, the bitcoin may double or triple in the next year or so. Why would I pay using bitcoin? I might just keep that. I'll still use my fiat currency to pay for my daily needs". So till the time we have this concept of cryptocurrencies being purchased for investment, I think that use as currency will be very limited.
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (33:13):
Although many people are still using cryptocurrencies to buy and sell stuff, but that is still very relatively less compared to what you do otherwise. So that thing has to go. Bitcoin was like A$10,000 early on this year and it is now reaching A$20,000. Why would somebody buy a cup of coffee with bitcoin in January when they can get two or three cup of coffees in end of the year? So that mentality and that thinking has to change for a complete adoption of cryptocurrencies against traditional currencies.
Amelia Searson (33:49):
Well, that's all we have for today. Thank you, Vidy and Saurav for sharing your knowledge on this topic. And where can people go to find out more about what you both do?
Associate Professor Vidy Potdar (33:59):
Okay. So anyone who wants to know more about my work, they can just search for the Blockchain Research and Development Lab on Curtin's website. And they'll find all the information that we're doing, all the research and the projects that we are working on.
Professor Saurav Dutta (34:13):
And same, they can go to Curtin's School of Accounting webpage, and they can find me. And if they want to know a little bit more about blockchain, my book recently got published in October.
Amelia Searson (34:27):
Professor Saurav Dutta (34:29):
It's available at Amazon and available anywhere a good book is sold.
Amelia Searson (34:33):
Wow, that's very exciting.
Professor Saurav Dutta (34:35):
Amelia Searson (34:36):
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