Now transmitting data from space to Earth, we explore the next steps for Western Australia’s diminutive Binar-1 satellite.
Now transmitting data from space to Earth, we explore the next steps for Western Australia’s diminutive Binar-1 satellite.
Jess is joined by the Director and Deputy Director of Curtin University’s Space Science and Technology Centre, the largest space science centre in the Southern Hemisphere and the governing centre of the Binar Space Program.
In this special, part two episode, we discuss the historic release of Binar-1 from the International Space Station on 6 October 2021 and how the crew had almost lost hope until a colleague received transmission while driving on a Perth freeway two weeks later.
We then chat about what data the crew will acquire, the purpose of Binars 2–7 and the Binar Prospector, and the broader economic, environmental and social impacts of the program on WA and the world.
Professor Phil Bland
Professor Bland is the Director of the Space Science and Technology Centre, and Director of the Desert Fireball Network (DFN). He has research interests in several distinct areas in planetary science: using primitive meteorites to explore the origin and early evolution of the Solar System, and understanding asteroid and cometary impacts.
Renae Sayers
Renae Sayers is the Deputy Director and Research Ambassador for the centre, leading engagement strategies and policy advocacy. Through her advocacy for Women in STEM and collaboration with NASA, Sayers was selected by the US Department of State’s International Visitor Leadership Program for 2018, advancing empowerment for women leaders, planetary science and outreach.
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au
Binar-1 and Space Science transcript
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
Music: OKAY by 13ounce Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0 Music promoted by Audio Library.
Image of Deployment of the Binar-1 and the BIRDS-2S (MAYA-3 and MAYA-4) from the Kibo. Copyright JAXA/NASA
Jessica Morrison (00:00):
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better. Hi, I'm Jessica Morrison. The Binar 1 cube satellite was released from the International Space Station on the 6th of October 2021, and made contact with ground control two weeks later. In this special part two, I follow on from our earlier episode with Binar project manager, Ben Hartig, and I speak with the director of Curtin Space Science And Technology Centre, Professor Phil Bland, and the deputy director, Renae Sayers. We chatted about what's next for the Binar Space Program, including its social economic and environmental impacts. If you'd like to find out more, please listen to part one of the episode on our feed or visit binarspace.com.
Jessica Morrison (00:47):
How did you feel to see Binar 1 released into low earth orbit and then eventually making contact with it? Can you talk me through that?
Professor Phil Bland (00:56):
You start.
Ms Renae Sayers (00:56):
Well, there's two very separate things there. So the moment of watching it go out of the International Space Station and seeing this gorgeous, tiny little cube, little 10 by 10 by 10 square centimetres, going out and into space and seeing literally it in front of clouds and the International Space Station there and, and having the cross to the mission control, all of that just literally took your breath away because you've been working for however many years and looking over each other's shoulders and supporting each other and in this idea and then doing it, and then seeing it coming together, having that crystallise in a moment is just awe inspiring. And, yeah, lots of squeals.
Professor Phil Bland (01:44):
So what she said. I think the part that really got me was that seeing it, and I actually blinked when it got blipped out, and then they repeated it, so we got a kind of action replay and I saw that. But then seeing it against the clouds with the other two, that was just magical. Thinking that, okay, here is a thing that I've held and now it's in space and here's a thing that we've built and that our team has built. And now it's in space. That one that just completely blew me away. Yeah.
Jessica Morrison (02:20):
And then what about when you heard it for the first time you made contact with it? Like, can you explain what you heard and the importance of that? And talk me through that a little bit.
Professor Phil Bland (02:27):
Yeah. So it was two weeks after, and the guys were trying lots of different things to try and get in touch with it. We were getting pretty worried and, it was... 95% of the kind of... Mentally you think, okay, what constitutes success in a project like this. And getting it there, and then having something meet all the specs that it needs to, to get blipped out into space. For me, that was kind of 90%. but you still want it to work, right? You still want to hear from it. So we were getting pretty worried, and definitely we were at the point where I was saying to the folks, "Like you've done a great job." It was real kind of morale boost time for a team. And then we heard from it and I got a text from Dan. He had managed to get in touch with it. I think he got an update while he was on the freeway and...
Ms Renae Sayers (03:30):
Hotspotting off his phone, sitting in the passenger seat with his laptop driving.
Professor Phil Bland (03:34):
How cool is that?
Ms Renae Sayers (03:35):
Driving down the freeway.
Professor Phil Bland (03:36):
Yeah.
Jessica Morrison (03:37):
And for those listening, what does it sound like when you hear it?
Professor Phil Bland (03:44):
We've been trying to get in touch with the main downlink data set, and what the guys have tried to do is get kind of a secondary beacon working. So your sort of Sputnik bleep, bleep, bleep type thing, and that's what they got working. And so that's what they managed to do. So it basically means then that actually the whole thing is alive, because it wouldn't be able to do that if the spacecraft weren't operational. So that was really great news.
Jessica Morrison (04:11):
And what's some of the data you're hoping to acquire from Binar 1?
Ms Renae Sayers (04:15):
Yeah. So at this stage, the first bit of the mission was to look at the engineering data. I mean, Binar 1 is the first of many. And so it is ultimately a technology demonstrator. We want to make sure that all the bits that we have built here at Curtin from scratch that they're working the way they should be. And we were hoping to get engineering data, the critical subsystems and how they're operating and being able to get enough so we can get a pattern to look at over several weeks would be ideal to understand. Yeah, how's it working.
Ms Renae Sayers (04:51):
And what are the the requirements, what are the limits that it's operating in and just get to know this bit of technology that has been designed and developed and tested and ultimately launched all right here from Curtin, by our team. And because that's going to lay the foundations for all of our other missions as we go on. So with Binar 1, it is the beginning and we've got six more to come. So that's seven in about 18 months and all of that is laying the groundwork ultimately for a mission to the moon.
Jessica Morrison (05:23):
It's like you read my mind [crosstalk 00:05:25]. Obviously, for those...
Professor Phil Bland (05:27):
You've done every subsequent question there, what do I say there?
Jessica Morrison (05:30):
That's right. The listeners who listen to our first part one of Binar in space, the future of Binar and space science would know that this is a program, there's lots of different satellites after Binar 1. So the plan is to eventually send a mission to the moon, but between now and then you're planning to deploy six more satellites. So what are you hoping to test in those upcoming missions in those upcoming satellites? What's the difference?
Professor Phil Bland (05:57):
So, we've got three more coming up in the next batch. They're all going to get launched together in the same spacecraft and they're going to go up together and then they're all going to get blipped at the space station together. So it's going to look like the last one, except that those three will all be ours, which will be a lot of fun.
Jessica Morrison (06:15):
That's cool.
Professor Phil Bland (06:15):
Which will be really cool. And they are going to be doing testing more advanced comms. They're going to have deployable panels. So they're, so solar panels are going to open up on each of those tiny little cubes.
Jessica Morrison (06:28):
So they'll start off as the 10 by 10 cubes and then expand and then expand [crosstalk 00:06:31].
Professor Phil Bland (06:31):
And then expand, which is going to look really cool. That's going to look really cool.
Jessica Morrison (06:34):
Very cool.
Professor Phil Bland (06:36):
And we testing out radiation shielding in there with radiation sensors. That's going to help inform us with the moon mission about what we want to do to protect that spacecraft, as it goes off. There's going to be a reentry experiment that we're testing as well. So there's actually quite a lot that's happening in those that's new and different and yummy.
Jessica Morrison (06:59):
When you say reentry, is that because obviously the others will disintegrate over a period of time?
Professor Phil Bland (07:04):
Yeah.
Jessica Morrison (07:05):
But you're testing for one of them to actually potentially reenter Earth intact, or...
Professor Phil Bland (07:09):
Yeah. So, so what we've got, we've got a concept that we are pushing. So one of our R&D paths is to develop, what's known as an entry, descent and landing system, but for a spacecraft, but for a CubeSat. And this has been played with, with a couple of groups around the world, Issa and NASAs as well. We're in actually quite a good position to test it because we can do rapid, iterative, R&D. It doesn't cost and arm and a leg. We don't have to spend 10 years planning something. And it's the kind of engineering that you wanted that's a bit more of a sort of suck it and see type thing. Very cool. If we can actually bring stuff back from low Earth orbit, so bring spacecrafts or experiments back. Very, very cool because we'll be able to do that in missions to other planets. I mean, basically anything that has an atmosphere, we'd be able to get a CubeSat to the surface of those planets, which would be yummy.
Jessica Morrison (08:10):
Your program manager, Ben Hartig, in part one of this series, we'll call it, chatted about briefly the moon mission. What do you want that to look like? What are some of the preliminary details you might be able to share with us?
Professor Phil Bland (08:24):
There's a really nice niche for, for CubeSat class spacecraft in the next 10 years, I think, in planetary exploration. Because previously all space missions have had to need a kind of a dedicated launch vehicle, right? So one big rocket per spacecraft, and that's a huge, additional expense when you want to send something to the moon or to an asteroid. In the next decade, you can have a lot of big missions going to the moon to do a whole bunch of other things. So having something that's small enough to ride along there cuts out a huge amount of the cost. And that's a big opportunity. So we've got a concept that'll do kind of geophysical exploration at the moon, getting a really nice magnetic survey. It's the kind of thing that companies do in WA all the time. And we're going to be doing that at the moon. And NASA are really excited about that. They've kind of said over a coffee they're there, maybe they could give us a free ride, if we built the spacecraft.
Jessica Morrison (09:28):
Not many people say they've had coffee with NASA, I love that. The amount of human made satellites and space debris orbiting Earth is becoming a bit of an issue with mission launches. Can you talk about how as a CubeSat, much smaller Binar 1 and its future siblings will call them present some more sustainable alternative, traditional satellites, Renae, Ben? Sorry, not Ben, Phil, sorry. Renee or Phil either or.
Ms Renae Sayers (09:53):
Yeah, so it's interesting because with larger, even though we still call them small satellites, larger satellites they, they may not be up there for as long. So when we look at small CubeSats, particularly like Binar 1, I mean its life in orbit is somewhere between 18 months, two years, depending on space weather and other bits and pieces, how it's interacting with the upper atmosphere. And so what you're going get is a mission that actually, it's not going to stay up there forever. What you're going to get is the mission at some point will end and literally the spacecraft will burn up in our atmosphere. And so that's one element of looking at spacecraft up there in orbit. If you have that sort of plan, you're not just creating this giant big spacecraft, popping them up on orbit, and then you can't really do anything about them at the end of life.
Ms Renae Sayers (10:46):
Or if systems or technology need to be updated or upgraded you, can't just sort of pop up there and do that very easily. And so there's a lot of debris. And then of course the issue in space, if there are, the Kessler syndrome. If you have bits of debris interacting, it's like literally a paint speck, something the size of a marble can absolutely cripple a spacecraft, right? And so the movie Gravity with Sandra Bullock and a spacecraft disintegrating in orbit and then it kind of ripping through where the International Space Station is, like, that's an actual scenario that's that could happen. And we have seen damage and literally spacecrafts be rendered useless because of small, size of marbles or a paint fleck, but it's travelling at the speed of a bullet. So of course that's going to rip through an astronaut, their suit.
Ms Renae Sayers (11:40):
They're going to provide a lot of damage, particularly if it hits on something critical, like a solar panel. And so therefore your power budget's going to be out of whack. And ultimately you're going to have just dead tech up there orbiting around. And if that whacks into another bit of debris, then you're creating more debris. And so it's just sort of like runaway effect. And so...
Jessica Morrison (11:59):
It's craziness up there.
Ms Renae Sayers (12:01):
There's a lot of stuff. And that's actually one of the things that the space agency in Australia was concerned about and making sure that whatever we're doing, it's sustainable and that's what we're contributing to. And the small spacecraft, particularly it's nano class, so that these CubeSats, that Binar 1, that space that they occupy. It is one thing it'll have a limited life up there and it will deorbit. And I mean, it'll ultimately become a Binar, right? Binar is the Nyungar word for fireball and, and that'll be it's ultimate. [crosstalk 00:12:33].
Jessica Morrison (12:33):
Very nice, very poetic.
Ms Renae Sayers (12:36):
Well, it starts with the desert fireball network, the origins of our, of our centre and the work and the heritage from, from that research program and technology and land with Binar, it's really beautiful.
Jessica Morrison (12:47):
Goes to the future of Binar.
Ms Renae Sayers (12:48):
Just the title of the podcast, I love that.
Jessica Morrison (12:52):
[crosstalk 00:12:52] And part of the program's vision is to socialise space. And Phil, I caught something on your LinkedIn recently, you did a big shout out to a few organisations who helping in the process of getting in contact with Binar 1, which was great to see the solid support that the programme has. And some pretty heavy hitters, some big names there, which is great. But the thing that really struck me was that you talked about the amateur community and what they did, and that really spoke to me about socialising space. So can you kind of talk to us about what are the next steps to make that happen? Whether it be with the amateur community or with schools or startups and things like that.
Professor Phil Bland (13:29):
Yeah, it, I mean, it's been a wonderful experience with been our one how engaged the amateur radio community has been with us and what a huge help they've been. It's just been lovely. Our engineers talking to them, iterating it with them. They've been helping. We only see it for like 10 minutes as it crosses our sky, that whole community has been helping around the world and pretty...
Jessica Morrison (13:55):
Sort of keep helping you keep longer track on it, right?
Professor Phil Bland (13:59):
Exactly, And they can be listening out for it when we can't, when it's over the horizon for us. And that's been fantastic. And I think hopefully that's also been fun for them because they've been a huge help to us in this project, so that's been lovely. We're going to continue that and get schools interested on the amateur radio side as well. So we've got a design, this is a big thing that Ben has been driving, a design for antennae that high schools can set up. Basically kind of a template that our engineers have put together. Just stuff you can buy in Bunnings, set up your own antenna, high school. It costs like two, three hundred bucks. And then the high schools can listen out for the spacecraft and that gets young people excited about it as well. There's a bunch of other outreach stuff that we're doing, yeah.
Jessica Morrison (14:48):
Also say as engagement specialist at the Space Science And Technology Centre, what is the future of socialising space looking like?
Ms Renae Sayers (14:55):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean really what Binar has done and the team, it's opening doors, in service of others. Space is hard and doing it for the first time like we have here in WA has been really, really hard. And so if we're not able to share the process, the lessons learned and ultimately the opportunities onwards, we won't have the growth at scale that we need to have to take on the challenges that we're seeing today and that we're facing tomorrow. And also have this next generation that everyone's talking about, cracking open and Australian space sector that can do some great things here nationally and connect and compete internationally. So really it does start with access to space and what that actually means when we talk about the radio antenna and the amateur radio community, well, that's the gateway, right?
Ms Renae Sayers (15:46):
So once you have something in space, you've got to be able to communicate with it. And so with that needing to go through the... It's like the ground floor, right? So without needing to go through building it yet yourself, you're still able to have real world, hands on, something that's technically challenging, but so incredibly rewarding. You're doing something you've never done before and you're showing that it's possible and you're bringing the school and the community together around that, so that can increases pride and increases ownership. We want space to be for everyone here in WA and, and across Australia, because it hasn't been beforehand. And so that's the real power that we see of Binar and the platform. It also means that it's a nice runway to get people excited after getting their hands dirty with cutting their teeth on these real world technology challenges to start looking at well, what do I want to do if I could design an experiment or build an instrument or code a program and have that up in space, what does that actually look like?
Ms Renae Sayers (16:50):
And because of the way Binar is being designed, we print them all on the guts of the spacecraft, the bus, it's all been designed on a single printed circuit board, which means that instead of buying your spacecraft from supply chains all around the world and having to sit in a lab and assemble it, often you are increasing the human error, often because they're really expensive. You don't know what's going on in, on the inside. It's not your IP, you can't mess around with it. And you certainly don't want to try and break it too much, because you only got one and you've spent a lot of money in getting to that point. And so with us, we've been able to kind of flip that on its head a little bit, do a lot of the design on the actual printed circuit board.
Ms Renae Sayers (17:35):
We're trying to reduce the human error, which means that when we print them like mobile phones the consumer electronic manufacturing, you're actually able to get more of them and you can really try and understand its limits. As Phil said, knock the corners off it before you actually kick it up into space. And because we can do that, it means we can do some cool things like open up more space on those 1U, those CubeSats for instruments and payloads for our students here at Curtin University and across WA. And we can actually extend that to schools and say, Hey schools, Hey students, what do you want to do in space? And what problems do you want to solve today? And let's walk down that pathway together and here's a spacecraft and we are here to help and get your hands dirty.
Ms Renae Sayers (18:21):
And so when you're at the point where you're thinking about what you want to do, making choices around what you want to study or what you want to do, you've got some pretty amazing hands on experience and real world hearts and minds switched on stuff there. So that's what we are really excited about with Binar. So yeah, good start with the amateur radio community, but really it extends straight into the people we see all around us here today in WA.
Jessica Morrison (18:46):
That's awesome. In Australia. And, but particularly here in WA, as we're aware, a lot of our revenue is generated by the mining industry. That's no surprise. How do you see the program's role in helping to diversify our economy? I think you probably look like you both have good answers on this one.
Professor Phil Bland (19:06):
It's a really big deal. And it's funny because occasionally I'll see people say, "well, why are we spending money on space when we could be doing stuff for the Earth? Or we could be... Why are we wasting money?"
Jessica Morrison (19:22):
"Why are we not giving it to the health system?"
Professor Phil Bland (19:23):
Exactly. And I think it's good to explain to people give them the answer to that. And the answer is that you're not wasting money on this, that you are making money on this. So people think of NASA as an organisation that, we're sending stuff to other planets, to Mars. NASA in a single year, gives the US economy around about a three to one return on its investments. And NASA gets like just over 20 billion a year. On a year to year, that's puts in about 63 billion into the US economy. On a total life, in terms of all the innovations that comes out of NASA engineering that increases to about a five to 10 times multiplier on a single dollar invested.
Professor Phil Bland (20:17):
So it's like in terms of, okay, why are we doing space? We're doing space because we make a lot of money out of that, right? And one of the ways that you do that is to... Space is actually one of the most direct, the reason why advanced economies spend money on basic research is because it has been historically a great driver for their economy. I love it because I love science and I get to do the thing I love, but people who get a dish out their cash have realised that [crosstalk 00:20:53] these people, that's right. People like me and my folks every now and then so one lays golden egg and, and that's wonderful. Now it turns out that space is almost the most direct link in that chain, because space missions, you have to come up with innovations to make things work in incredibly difficult environments, very compact energy requirements, huge ranges in temperature, and basically all of that.
Professor Phil Bland (21:22):
And the sensors that you build for those spacecraft has almost a direct link into applications around the Earth. Most of the sensors that people use for earth observations that scientists that we use for weather or communications, most of that stuff came from interplanetary missions, blue sky missions. So it goes directly in. And so in answer to that question, what's the benefit and how does it help us diversify? So to make that just very specific, the space economy is currently growing about three times faster than the regular, the rest of the economy. Globally, the space exploration component of that is actually growing at I think it's 25% a year, so it's kind of nuts. So I'd flip it around and say to people, why aren't we investing in that because it's genuinely a no brainer.
Jessica Morrison (22:21):
And do you say that?
Professor Phil Bland (22:24):
I do. Absolutely. Yes I do.
Jessica Morrison (22:24):
Is that your barbecue chat, or your dinner party conversation?
Professor Phil Bland (22:24):
Oh no. That's the whole thing that all the way up to the head of ASA, the Australian Space Agency. I say that to anyone I can grab. Yes. So, and happily all of the listeners that are dialling in today.
Jessica Morrison (22:38):
That's it. Do you have anything to add Renee on that one?
Ms Renae Sayers (22:40):
Well, that's what's going to get the investment cases over the line, right? In the context of, well, here's actually the facts, here's the data and this is why it's a no brainer as you say. But there's something else to this that is really unique to space, and that is that nothing else inspires just quite like it. And if we're wanting to understand diversification opportunities, particularly here in WA in our state, we've got to think about what is going to move people. What is going to make people be connected to something so grand, so incredible like space? And that will require skills, things like STEM skills that we just know are foundational to how we operate. We've got to get there somehow and nothing inspires quite like space.
Ms Renae Sayers (23:33):
And so from one point of view, if you are going to be able to hold up something like a really strong space sector in WA, you're holding a beacon out to our community and showing firstly, the art of what is possible. What is it, NASA's dead, mighty things? And the endeavours along that way, you develop incredible experiences, amazing sets of skills. And they can be transferred into a lot of different high tech sectors, not just space. And I think that's one thing that's really interesting, if you want a passport to help navigate an uncertain future.
Ms Renae Sayers (24:10):
And one thing is for certain, our future is very uncertain, then investing in your STEM skills is certainly one of the most powerful things that you can do. And if you want to like light a fire onto people around inspiring them to really chase down those experiences and skills and for them to enjoy it and to bring meaning and to grow from that, there's nothing quite like space that can actually do that for you. So there's that argument as well. There's a couple of other lenses we can go for more reasons why, but it's really nice.
Professor Phil Bland (24:43):
Can I add to that [crosstalk 00:24:43] because am I right to...
Ms Renae Sayers (24:45):
Yeah, of course.
Professor Phil Bland (24:47):
So absolutely that's a really good point, sunshine, and I do tend to kind of lead with the the economics of it because a lot of people don't know that.
Jessica Morrison (24:55):
And that's literally how you sign it away, right?
Professor Phil Bland (24:58):
I know. And, but it struck me when the Perseverance Rover landed on Mars, that people in Australia were watching that at whatever it was, three in the morning. And now think about that for a second. So a federal agency in a foreign country is meeting one of its key performance indicators, and Australians are dialling in at three in the morning to see whether it's done that. So we don't do that for housing and urban development in the US, right? Or veterans affairs.
Jessica Morrison (25:35):
Or even organisations of our own in our own country.
Professor Phil Bland (25:35):
Or even our own. But, but here is something that, that is so inspirational and unites the world in achievements. Like China, but in a Lunar lander there, right? People were glued to that. It is inspirational. And that's why space science missions are very different from space from other space missions. Now, what, for instance, what SpaceX is doing with the Starlink network is incredible, but you don't have people dialling in at 3 AM to watch a Starlink launch. You do have people dialling in to watch them build starships and test those because that is a vision about what humans are going to be doing at the moon in 10 years time.
Professor Phil Bland (26:23):
And there's 40 undergrads who've been involved in who are currently involved in Binar, that's how you get young, brilliant people bouncing out of bed in the morning by giving them an inspirational target and wrapping it in this. Like Renee said, space inspires like nothing else. I think I would love a future where WA is... We've got a space industry and we're seeing the real awards on that and that is diversifying our economy. And we've got WA students building spacecraft, our spacecraft that are flying to the moon. I'd be really very proud to be helping that happen. I think that would be a pretty nice future. So...
Ms Renae Sayers (27:25):
And as Ben said, launching stuff and flying your own things, that'll create jobs, but going to the moon, that's going to create careers. And that will redefine, I think the generational outlook of who we are as WA. And I think when we talk about diversifying the economy, we have to think about what, what could possibly challenge our identity at that scale. And again, nothing else comes close to the potential of space.
Jessica Morrison (27:52):
Beautifully put, you two. Leads very nicely in probably my last question, talking about inspiration. What inspired you both to work in this area?
Ms Renae Sayers (28:01):
Well, it all started Jess, when I was a young girl, I was very annoying and I asked lots of questions, often why? And honestly it was like often about the space [crosstalk 00:28:15].
Professor Phil Bland (28:15):
...ran off to join the circus?
Ms Renae Sayers (28:16):
Yeah, yeah. I'm getting there. There's an arc, but yeah. Just bury the lead a little bit.
Professor Phil Bland (28:20):
Preempted it.
Ms Renae Sayers (28:21):
So, no, honestly, I was fascinated by looking at the stars, I grew up in the foothills of Mount Dandenongs in Melbourne. And so we actually had a decent sky from what I remember. And so I would get astronomy books given to me as gifts and they would pile up. And one of the things I used to do was look at the NASA website. So I was about 16 when this particular memory I'm about to share came about, but I would look at the NASA websites. I loved the planetary nebulae. I loved understanding how dust and gas can produce stars and ultimately all the things that we see and then sort of cosmology. And so a lot of like the philosophical questions around space and often like taking it to the extreme and like, yeah, ultimately why we are here and, and how even is all of this.
Ms Renae Sayers (29:07):
And so I enjoyed that. And so looking on the NASA websites, I found this, at the time it was called the office of Space Science and Public Outreach. And I wrote an email to them after having that sort of little tingle feeling at the back of my head and they wrote back. And so it was literally be like, "what is this? It looks like you're out talking to people about like science and space and things."" And they wrote back and they said, that's it we're either scientists or engineers worked on stuff. And we want give back to the community or we're teachers, or we, we just want to share, share it with the community." They said the words education and public outreach. And so I had a little hunt and there was a place in Australia that did outreach and it was called Science Communication.
Ms Renae Sayers (29:51):
And so I sort of saw that there was a postgrad in that. And so I literally, yes, Phil went and ran away to join the science Circus, Which was Australian National University. It was a postgrad in science communication. It's now a master's program, but that literally was, I went to uni, did an astrophysics degree and ran away to join the science circus. And then spent another decade or so sharing the science, joy, and, and I guess trying to light other fires of exploration and wonder in others. But yeah, there's something special about space and that source of inspiration, I think there's so much diversity in it. And I think there's another reason why I believe that particularly here in WA, but in general it's going to take our, the next step is going to take our diversity and something like space unites like nothing else, because we can all find something about it that we can tap into. And that's my story, and I know it's going to be completely different to other people like you, Phil, what inspired you?
Jessica Morrison (30:53):
Can I say quickly, that's probably the most quirky answer we've had in the podcast around the circus line. I love it. I love it.
Professor Phil Bland (30:59):
I love the circus, right? It's like, yeah.
Ms Renae Sayers (31:02):
Shoutout to the Shell Questacon Science Circus.
Jessica Morrison (31:04):
There you go.
Professor Phil Bland (31:06):
So, I think I got interested or excited about science and space watching the original Cosmos with Carl Sagan. Like a lot of kids did and watching after the end of the Apollo missions, I wasn't old enough to remember them happening. I was born like two months before Apollo 11.
Jessica Morrison (31:32):
Really?
Professor Phil Bland (31:32):
So my dad apparently did hold me up and watch it on the telly. So I have been alive and saw it, although no...
Jessica Morrison (31:40):
Whether you were taking [crosstalk 00:31:42].
Professor Phil Bland (31:43):
That's true.
Ms Renae Sayers (31:44):
Probably, you have, right? Maybe this is the thing.
Professor Phil Bland (31:46):
It's there, but it was in the aftermath of that. And it was just part of the culture at that time that it was still in the sort of post Apollo. It was just part of the culture that we've actually been to the moon. And, and that kind of blew me away. One of my earliest memories was the launch of the Voyager spacecraft. And I was just fascinated by that. And I never ever thought that I would be doing it for a living, but those were the things that, that kind of inspired me. So if there was a thing that inspired me to be con scientist of any flavour at all, then it was Carl Sagan and it was the Apollo missions. Yeah.
Jessica Morrison (32:31):
I love it. Thank you both so much for chatting with me and our listeners, and it's just been really, really interesting. So thank you so much and good luck with the program.
Professor Phil Bland (32:41):
Thanks, Jess.
Jessica Morrison (32:41):
It has a very exciting future.
Ms Renae Sayers (32:43):
Thank you, Jess.
Professor Phil Bland (32:44):
Thank you.
Ms Renae Sayers (32:44):
It's lovely to chat to you about it all as well. It's wonderful to see you.
Jessica Morrison (32:49):
It's been a great chat. You've been listening to The Future Of, a podcast powered by Curtin University. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it. And if you want to hear from more experts, stay up-to-date by subscribing to us on your favourite podcast app. Bye for now.