How can we turn climate anxiety into meaningful action and hope for the future?
How can we turn climate anxiety into meaningful action and hope for the future?
In this episode, David Karsten is joined by Associate Professor Jayne Bryant, Director of the Curtin University Sustainability Policy Institute, to discuss climate anxiety, sustainability leadership and how people can move from fear to meaningful action.
Associate Professor Jayne Bryant
Director, Curtin University Sustainability Policy Institute
Associate Professor Jayne Bryant’s career in teaching, research and practice has focused on building the sustainability leadership capability of those around her. Jayne has spent close to a decade living, working, teaching and researching in Sweden and is keen to share this unique experience in strategic sustainability, transformational leadership and a systems approach to creating change for more just and sustainable futures.
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Host: David Karsten
Content creator: Caitlin Crowley
Producer: Emilia Jolakoska
Executive Producers: Anita Shore and Natasha Weeks
Curtin University acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the First Peoples of this place we call Australia, and the First Nations peoples connected with our global campuses. We are committed to working in partnership with Custodians and Owners to strengthen and embed First Nations’ voices and perspectives in our decision-making, now and into the future.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:09:19
David Karsten
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.
00:00:09:21 - 00:00:34:17
David Karsten
I'm David Karsten. In the 2030s, Earth is likely to reach 1.5 degrees of global warming. That means our climate will keep changing, bringing more extreme heat, weather and uncertainty for many people. That uncertainty feels overwhelming. Some call it climate anxiety - a sense of distress about the continuing fate of the world. So how do we move from fear to participation?
00:00:34:19 - 00:00:56:03
David Karsten
To explore just that, we were joined by Associate Professor Jayne Bryant, director of Curtin University Sustainability Policy Institute. You'll find links to Jayne's research in the show notes. I've always enjoyed the stories of creatives that have made the switch into academia. I think it's always such a fascinating journey, I guess, to research and to find out about.
00:00:56:04 - 00:00:58:00
David Karsten
What's your journey been like?
00:00:58:02 - 00:01:23:09
Jayne Bryant
I feel like I keep on trying to bring the creative back in, in a story around that. So where I did my PhD was in Sweden, and as a part of finishing is a defence where you have to present your work to whoever wants to come. You have to be able to answer questions of three professors, as well as anyone else who wants to ask you a question about your research and then defend it.
00:01:23:15 - 00:01:36:11
Jayne Bryant
And then the deciding committee goes away for an hour, and they come back and decide whether or not you've actually passed your PhD or not. If they say no, that's it. Five years down the gurgler, you have to start again. So it's pretty intense, right?
00:01:36:13 - 00:01:43:10
David Karsten
But I saw that Survivor. Yeah. You know, the tribe has spoken, you know, cup over the flame. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so what happened?
00:01:43:12 - 00:02:06:01
Jayne Bryant
So I passed, but that was a long way of saying I often start that presentation - or I started it a couple of times where I've done these similar events - with a photo of ABBA and a story about, I've always loved Sweden and the story about me being a singer-songwriter and being a rock star was my first love, and I followed that passion.
00:02:06:03 - 00:02:31:03
Jayne Bryant
And that passion led me to trying to figure out why all my creative and artistic friends were leaving Perth. So I was studying at WAAPA, and I'm, and I'm, you know, a bit confused about why no one's staying here. And then the West Australian newspaper said, what do you want Perth to look like in 2030? Come and have your say. This is like 20 years ago.
00:02:31:05 - 00:02:47:00
Jayne Bryant
And so I got the goosebumps and I got the tears. I'm like, I want to go and have my say in this event. And that was the day that I learned the word sustainability and met my current best friend. She was studying this thing called sustainability with Peter Newman. Peter Newman is -
00:02:47:02 - 00:02:47:15
David Karsten
The Peter Newman -
00:02:47:15 - 00:03:11:09
Jayne Bryant
Yes. Peter Newman and I - I started to learn about sustainability from that event. I became passionate about learning everything I possibly could about sustainability, and instead of wanting to be a rock star, I saw job ads for like the Department of Planning in strategic planning, urban design, and I was like, oh my God, that's the dream job for me.
00:03:11:11 - 00:03:24:21
Jayne Bryant
This idea of, you know, being able to be creative on a larger scale in how we design a city. That was what really excited me. Let me go back to starting my presentation with urban music and wanting to do that.
00:03:24:23 - 00:03:28:18
David Karsten
Is that before or after this? This change in the chronology of it? Yeah.
00:03:28:18 - 00:03:53:05
Jayne Bryant
Let's go chronology, chronology. So I'm like, okay, I need to learn everything I possibly can about sustainability. I read everything that was on her reading list. I watched a movie which definitely prompted some climate anxiety in me, and that was Al Gore's movie. Yes - An Inconvenient Truth. Yeah. So that was around 2007, I believe. I went to the opening of that, which was at Luna Leederville.
00:03:53:07 - 00:04:20:06
Jayne Bryant
Alana McTiernan was minister at the time in this space, and I remember being kind of deeply troubled and passionate and wanting to make a change in the world and here in my place. And she said, get involved and get active, because if you the people don't ask for it, we can't go there. You know, as a minister, I can't push an agenda that my constituency is not asking me to push.
00:04:20:08 - 00:04:42:21
Jayne Bryant
So that connection between, you know, social action as a community, as an individual and then climate change and climate action - it was life changing for me and I around that time, I was having regular recurring dreams - like floods that were not nice. They were nightmares and I was troubled. So music was still around for me.
00:04:42:21 - 00:05:03:20
Jayne Bryant
I was, you know, teaching English as a second language. And I think I was possibly still at WAAPA, or maybe I wasn't quite sure what I was doing for my career, but what got me was climate, climate change, sustainability and a desire to make a difference in the world. And as a kid, I'd been called a revolutionary without a cause by a family friend.
00:05:03:22 - 00:05:12:19
Jayne Bryant
And I think this was my cause. I found my thing that had been missing in my life, that I wanted to learn more about.
00:05:12:21 - 00:05:27:10
David Karsten
For you, Jayne, at that time, what was, I guess, the course path, given that you'd been to WAAPA? Did you move into some sort of postgrad kind of world, or did you just have to start again at an undergraduate level?
00:05:27:12 - 00:05:29:02
Jayne Bryant
I had a Bachelor of Science.
00:05:29:02 - 00:05:30:19
David Karsten
Oh, yeah. We'll just whip that out.
00:05:30:20 - 00:05:39:01
Jayne Bryant
Yeah, right. So I did a Bachelor of Science in human movement at the University of Western Australia before WAAPA. Yeah. Wow.
00:05:39:03 - 00:05:41:05
David Karsten
Oh, wow. Yeah. Right.
00:05:41:07 - 00:05:43:02
Jayne Bryant
Yeah. I love learning. You've -
00:05:43:02 - 00:05:44:08
David Karsten
Yeah. Been on a journey.
00:05:44:08 - 00:06:11:23
Jayne Bryant
Yeah. So I already had that. So therefore I could move to a postgraduate degree. I went to Murdoch University, where they have a sustainability program, and Curtin CUSP was just starting, and I was like, oh, where do I go? What's the best for me? So I did a Google search of sustainability master's programs in Australia.
00:06:12:00 - 00:06:41:19
Jayne Bryant
And there was this one link to a place in Sweden. And I clicked the link and it was this - are you the next sustainability leader? A guy leaping across a blue sky and grass, you know, carrying a briefcase. And I was like, yes. And I clicked through further and it was this master's program, one year intensive, people from all around the world - free, like free higher education for anyone.
00:06:41:22 - 00:06:43:08
David Karsten
Hello to the 1970s.
00:06:43:08 - 00:06:49:03
Jayne Bryant
Hello, Scandinavia. Yes. Yeah. Yes, 70s in Australia. But this was still early 2000s.
00:06:49:05 - 00:06:49:20
David Karsten
Amazing.
00:06:49:24 - 00:06:50:08
Jayne Bryant
Yeah.
00:06:50:08 - 00:06:51:06
David Karsten
So opportunity.
00:06:51:12 - 00:07:11:05
Jayne Bryant
I applied. Yeah. And I got in and that was a master's in strategic leadership towards sustainability. The reason I went there was I was also needing hope. I mentioned the nightmares. I mentioned being really quite troubled when I, when I started to discover, you know, issues around climate change, sustainability - it felt like the wool being pulled from my eyes.
00:07:11:05 - 00:07:24:10
Jayne Bryant
And I'm like, we need to do stuff, people. And it's very easy to move into, I don't know, it's beyond me. What do I do? How can I do something? And so I decided to study. So that was the prompt to move across the world.
00:07:24:12 - 00:07:42:10
David Karsten
Jayne, you talk about that experience of watching An Inconvenient Truth in 2007, having nightmares, living in Perth. That's climate anxiety, isn't it? Absolutely. So can you tell me, why do you think people feel that way? And increasingly so.
00:07:42:12 - 00:08:14:08
Jayne Bryant
So whereas when I discovered it and I was moving towards studying sustainability, most people didn't know what I was talking about. John Howard was still in charge, denying climate change was even a thing or a problem. What's shifted now is most people in the world - not believe, as in it's the tooth fairy and you can believe or not believe - but you know, understand that we are living through right now climate-related events and impacts.
00:08:14:10 - 00:08:32:10
Jayne Bryant
And they're only going to increase. That's existential. You know, the thought that, oh, everything I thought was true and the way I'm living my life and the way we're all living and the values upon which we've based everything might not work moving forwards. That's pretty confronting.
00:08:32:12 - 00:08:46:22
David Karsten
For those of us of a certain generation that may be experienced as a descent into climate anxiety, but for perhaps a younger generation, is there a baseline that I guess they're living with from the get-go?
00:08:46:22 - 00:09:10:21
Jayne Bryant
Absolutely. Yeah. I think you're naming it. So these masters that I mentioned that I did that changed my life - I then went back and taught on it. I ended up being co-director of that master's program, and I did my PhD on that - in that master's program - looking at how is it, what are these things we need to be developing in people in order to make change towards sustainability.
00:09:10:22 - 00:09:32:05
Jayne Bryant
But during that time, I noticed such a change in the students as they were arriving. So when I arrived 15 years ago and I mentioned that, you know, John Howard said climate change is not a thing - for me, starting these masters with people from all around the world, all of whom were saying, there's a problem, everyone, can we please look at it and can we please address it and try and do something about it?
00:09:32:07 - 00:09:53:13
Jayne Bryant
That was kind of healing for me, because I was living in a world where that was a battle. Whereas what I realized was the students that are arriving now, they know things are falling apart, they're witnessing it. They're already in that space. And it was quite interesting for me to observe - like the beginning of this master's program is a full few weeks of here.
00:09:53:13 - 00:10:15:18
Jayne Bryant
All the problems are, run - and wait, there's more. And did you know about that? And that's also connected to this. And this is a problem too. And just witnessing these kids, there's no healing in that for them because they're already there. They already know it. So we need to adjust the way that we speak about it. It's a tough one, David, because we can't sugarcoat it.
00:10:15:18 - 00:10:32:03
Jayne Bryant
You know, the problems are real. And I don't think it helps anyone by pretending there are no problems. Yet how do we hold that at the same time as build the agency of people to feel like they can do something about it?
00:10:32:05 - 00:10:57:12
David Karsten
And I do want to move into a positive space. But before we do, you know, to me it seems like, you know, the younger generation has every right to feel aggrieved - yeah - by a situation that is not of their doing, and aggrieved even further so if we are not enacting good policy, policy that looks towards a solution, right?
00:10:57:14 - 00:11:08:14
David Karsten
Is that a hurdle that as a society we need to get across - that generational responsibility? I don't know if that's absolutely the right terminology for it, but do you, do you kind of get what I'm getting at?
00:11:08:16 - 00:11:23:24
Jayne Bryant
I think that generational equity is a key piece of sustainability, and I guess I've used that word without defining what I mean by it. But let's just go with the original definition: meeting the needs of the present without jeopardising future generations' ability to meet their own needs.
00:11:24:01 - 00:11:27:14
David Karsten
That's why you were on that side of the microphone and I'm over here.
00:11:27:16 - 00:11:49:18
Jayne Bryant
But you, you lot, you were tapped into it, right? Like that's the core of it. And for me, that was back in 1997. It's called the Brundtland Report. What it did was talk about the future and future generations. And I think what's become even more relevant in the present - it's not just future generations, although it is future generations.
00:11:49:20 - 00:12:20:23
Jayne Bryant
It's current people living on the planet. We are currently using resources in a completely unfair manner. So this equity piece - often people think sustainability and they think, oh, we're talking about environment. Totally, we're talking about environment. But sustainability implies a social system that functions within a healthy environment. And a social system needs social equity in order to function effectively.
00:12:20:23 - 00:12:33:08
Jayne Bryant
And what we're seeing more and more and more is social equity becoming less and less fair. You know, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. And that matters from a sustainability lens.
00:12:33:10 - 00:12:53:23
David Karsten
In a fairly wealthy society that we enjoy here in Australia, I guess our experience of the urgency of sustainability is perhaps different from other populations around the world. Is climate anxiety experienced equally and in the same way by all populations?
00:12:54:00 - 00:13:22:15
Jayne Bryant
I'm going to go with yes and no. I mean, I think that there are some people in the world who are experiencing climate-related issues right now. Can I also just back up a little - for me, climate change is one of the most significant issues that we need to deal with, but it's a symptom of our unsustainability on planet Earth.
00:13:22:17 - 00:13:43:01
Jayne Bryant
So we need to sometimes back up and just go, I mean, climate change is one problem, and it's connected to a million other problems that we're going to see that impact all these other spheres. But this idea of sustainability - connecting the environment and social - let me do this. So the master's that I was connected to, it talked about it.
00:13:43:03 - 00:14:06:04
Jayne Bryant
Let's design with principles of sustainability. What are some things like absolutely foundational principles that we're doing wrong when it comes to the environment? What are we doing? Okay, well, we're digging stuff out of the ground and we're releasing it into the atmosphere in systematically increasing quantities. We're also creating chemicals and compositions that have never before existed in nature.
00:14:06:08 - 00:14:35:17
Jayne Bryant
And releasing those into the atmosphere in systematically increasing quantities. And we're also overfishing and overforesting in a way that these natural systems can't rejuvenate. So if we stop doing those three, that'd be pretty great - a start towards something more sustainable. However, if a human being cannot meet their basic needs, we can't have sustainability. Because if a person gets to choose between fishing the last fish and feeding their family, they'll feed their family and the ecosystem dies.
00:14:35:22 - 00:14:45:12
Jayne Bryant
A lot of people, when they talk about sustainability, they say there's three pillars. There's the environment and there's the social and there's the economic. As if they're not connected.
00:14:45:14 - 00:14:48:01
David Karsten
It's a giant Venn diagram, isn't it? Yeah.
00:14:48:02 - 00:15:05:22
Jayne Bryant
Well it should be a nested model, right? We should have one planet, big circle, a social system that functions within the constraints of that planet and those ecosystems, and an economic system that serves the functioning of a healthy society within that planet. Wouldn't that be -
00:15:05:22 - 00:15:07:21
David Karsten
Great? That would be great. I feel a song coming on.
00:15:07:22 - 00:15:10:08
Jayne Bryant
Yeah. Hey, Chrissy.
00:15:10:10 - 00:15:31:17
David Karsten
Well, look, you talk about that element of participation and being active and being a vocal constituent to help drive policy change. What helps shift people from feeling like subjects of the future to actively shaping it?
00:15:31:19 - 00:15:53:04
Jayne Bryant
Yeah. Great question. I'm going to make a loop back to the beginning too. So one of my first research papers was based on the work that I did at the City of Canning. So I started at the City of Canning after doing a couple of master's degrees in Sweden, and there was nothing happening there. And I love teaching.
00:15:53:04 - 00:16:28:02
Jayne Bryant
That was my first love - teaching, singing, songwriting, all that kind of stuff. And I thought, how do I approach sustainability in this organisation in a way that is going to empower as many people as possible to be leaders for sustainability and climate action? And so we had a great team. We designed a sustainability leadership education program where we trained - it would be 80 people from across the organisation, from all of these different specialist areas, you know, the parks people and the people that worked in the swimming pool and the libraries people.
00:16:28:05 - 00:16:54:02
Jayne Bryant
We trained them in sustainability - kind of the principles that I talked about before - in leadership, in what they can do. And then we encouraged and supported them to make changes for sustainability in their lives. So this was the work that I did at the City of Canning. And then when I did my first research paper, I was presenting at a conference in Germany, and it was called Leverage Points for Sustainability Transformations.
00:16:54:06 - 00:17:17:20
Jayne Bryant
Yeah, yeah. Nice. The idea being, you're right, there are different places in a system. So we're living in a complex system. There are different places you can intervene to try and make change. And I believe the hardest to reach, but most effective, are actually shifting humans - the mindset or the paradigm out of which we even understand the problem and address the problem.
00:17:17:22 - 00:17:42:08
Jayne Bryant
So I was presenting this work that I did, which was skilling up human beings in an organisation to then go and lead change in their areas. And afterwards someone asked me a question, because I started with my slide of ABBA and that I'd once upon a time wanted to be a rock star. And he said, do you think that your approach in this organisation was influenced by the fact that you're a musician?
00:17:42:10 - 00:17:44:13
David Karsten
Oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting question.
00:17:44:13 - 00:18:05:04
Jayne Bryant
And I said, that's interesting. And I'm like, tell me more. And it's like, well, you know, as a musician - or conducting an orchestra, which I don't do - you bring musicians who have all of their different instruments together to this one song or one piece, and you work collectively, but you all play your own part in it. I'm like, that's a beautiful analogy.
00:18:05:04 - 00:18:05:19
David Karsten
That's right.
00:18:05:24 - 00:18:33:02
Jayne Bryant
That is how I approach sustainability. I'm like, cool, David, you play bass. What about this song? What about this key? And I can play piano and whatnot. How do we move towards something collectively but using our own strengths to do that? So I guess that's where I find agency - is trying to meet each human being with where they're at and what they have the capability to do, because there is work for all of us.
00:18:33:04 - 00:18:56:23
Jayne Bryant
And in terms of addressing that, you know, the shift - okay, climate anxiety, very real thing. And how do you possibly flip towards something that's not - for a start, don't try and not be anxious, like it's upsetting. Let's not pretend it's not. For me personally, and I do believe for many other people, it's about having what Joanna Macy would call active hope.
00:18:57:00 - 00:19:26:18
Jayne Bryant
It's actions towards something. So for me, I think I went to Sweden looking for the answer that would kind of solve this all. And I didn't find that. What I found was purpose. And purpose for me - for however long I've got a life on this planet Earth - I want to be moving towards something of value for me and for others, and that helps me keep moving, with more hope and more agency.
00:19:26:22 - 00:19:33:03
David Karsten
I was just going to say, Jayne, ultimately perhaps what you found is that we all are the answers in our own special way.
00:19:33:03 - 00:19:34:01
Jayne Bryant
Absolutely.
00:19:34:01 - 00:19:54:18
David Karsten
Just got to figure out what your role is. Absolutely. You had a really good sample size there - the City of Canning, 80 participants over a certain amount of time. Did you find that in order to sustain engagement over the long term, that some personality types or, you know, qualities were better suited to these leadership positions than others?
00:19:54:20 - 00:19:55:18
David Karsten
00:19:55:20 - 00:20:17:06
Jayne Bryant
I think, yeah. Look, can I then expand that out to a study that we did do? So not just of that - when I was in Sweden doing my PhD, with some colleagues, we asked - not just me, but a lot of people who do this work in the world - around the question: what kind of inner competencies?
00:20:17:06 - 00:20:42:04
Jayne Bryant
So the word competencies is used for, you know, an ability to do something in the world. And this idea of interpersonal competence is how do you work with others - intrapersonal competencies - and who am I and what capabilities do I need to build in order to do this work? And, you know, we came up with eight that people felt were useful.
00:20:42:06 - 00:21:06:19
Jayne Bryant
They were: self-regulation. So this emotional part is full on - how do I do the work, get the disappointment, get knocked back, process that in my own - however I do that - and then keep moving forwards, keep taking that step towards a life of meaning and purpose. Deeply valuing other human beings.
00:21:06:21 - 00:21:11:04
David Karsten
Well, that's a motivator, isn't it? That's a sort of a core motivation anyway. Yeah. To doing what you're doing.
00:21:11:05 - 00:21:27:02
Jayne Bryant
Not just those who are like me. All of them. All of us. Yes. Ensuring well-being. Show up as your full self. Now, let's not do caricatures of ourselves on chatbots - let's show up as our full selves.
00:21:27:08 - 00:21:37:17
David Karsten
And that in itself is a challenge for some of us - maybe all of us at times, isn't it? It's actually - ideally, you know, being honest with yourself. Yep. Is - that's. Yeah. That's a demand.
00:21:37:17 - 00:21:40:11
Jayne Bryant
Yeah. Or your boss is like, I want that part of you.
00:21:40:14 - 00:21:41:22
David Karsten
Yeah. True.
00:21:41:22 - 00:21:46:00
Jayne Bryant
Sorry. Yeah. Maybe self-regulating and learning when to do that.
00:21:46:00 - 00:21:46:19
David Karsten
So related.
00:21:46:23 - 00:22:11:01
Jayne Bryant
It is. Holding complexity. So we talk about complexity a lot in sustainability. And when we say that - you might have heard of wicked problems - these are problems that are too complex, too challenging for any one discipline or person to solve. And sustainability, climate - these are complex problems. And the ability to hold that, you know, as a person.
00:22:11:01 - 00:22:18:07
Jayne Bryant
The paradox also of living in the world that we live in, knowing that it's not going to be perfect and still trying to do something.
00:22:18:12 - 00:22:23:02
David Karsten
So holding complexity is - in a way, is it about accepting complexity? Is that what you're saying?
00:22:23:04 - 00:22:40:23
Jayne Bryant
Absolutely. Yeah. Letting things be sometimes. Yeah. Learning to shrug the shoulders if you need to, and go for a walk on the beach and just let it be how it is. Because things can't always be perfect. Persisting with lightness. See if you can find that humour sometimes.
00:22:40:23 - 00:22:43:00
David Karsten
Yeah, I think you can joke.
00:22:43:02 - 00:22:43:24
Jayne Bryant
Right? Yeah.
00:22:44:01 - 00:22:47:08
David Karsten
It's good - vibes.
00:22:47:10 - 00:22:56:18
Jayne Bryant
And the last one is fostering a learner's mindset. You know, always be curious. We're always just beginning. Stay open.
00:22:57:11 - 00:23:00:03
Jayne Bryant
If you've got all the answers you can't learn anymore.
00:23:00:06 - 00:23:02:08
David Karsten
And who wants to be around those kinds of people.
00:23:02:10 - 00:23:04:05
Jayne Bryant
Right.
00:23:04:07 - 00:23:27:15
David Karsten
Well, Jayne, you talk about your time in Sweden as being quite formative in shaping your, I guess, your future and the direction that you wanted to take. What did you notice about Swedish culture? Was it a culture that is, I guess, almost suited - or better suited - to, I guess, take on sustainability as a bit of a mission?
00:23:27:15 - 00:23:28:12
David Karsten
Yeah.
00:23:28:14 - 00:23:36:19
Jayne Bryant
It's an inspiration and it's a long-standing crush that I have on Sweden.
00:23:36:21 - 00:23:37:23
David Karsten
So what did you see?
00:23:37:23 - 00:24:06:06
Jayne Bryant
Yeah, for me, it was the valuing of the environment, social equity, gender equity in ways that we are still moving towards - you know, parental leave of 18 months shared between two partners, all these tiny things that are social sustainability and environmental sustainability. I can give you one example. So I was facilitating a room full of 50 students from all around the world.
00:24:06:08 - 00:24:26:15
Jayne Bryant
And there were some Swedes who were talking about some terrible event where there was death. And it was everywhere. All the Swedes - about 3 or 4 - going, oh, that was terrible, that was terrible. And then it came out that what they were talking about was the death of some cows, that there was a bit of a toxic spill somewhere.
00:24:26:16 - 00:24:31:22
Jayne Bryant
Oh, no. And one of my gorgeous students from Argentina was just like, I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry.
00:24:31:22 - 00:24:36:18
David Karsten
Time to crank up the barbecue and have an asado.
00:24:36:19 - 00:24:47:04
Jayne Bryant
Yeah, right. Yeah. It was just such - it was an amazing realisation of these different cultures around, yes, you know, protection of nature, shall we say, or -
00:24:47:05 - 00:25:10:05
David Karsten
Yeah. Yes. Well, what a perspective difference, I guess - yeah - on the same thing. I guess you've kind of answered it with the cows, but generally sustainability is a topic of conversation, or is an attitude, or is an outlook. What did you experience in your, I guess, your interactions with the Swedes?
00:25:10:07 - 00:25:17:22
Jayne Bryant
Look, and I'm going to expand this to Scandinavians full stop. And I'm now going to do a plug for something at Curtin.
00:25:18:00 - 00:25:20:22
David Karsten
This would be a good place to do that, right?
00:25:20:24 - 00:25:27:18
Jayne Bryant
I think so. We are taking 30 students from the School of Design and Built Environment.
00:25:27:18 - 00:25:29:08
David Karsten
And one podcast host.
00:25:29:10 - 00:25:56:11
Jayne Bryant
Yeah, I'm sure we can work that out - to Sweden and Copenhagen. Yeah, Denmark and Sweden in summer for a study tour. Scandi-land study tour. Because I don't feel like I can do justice. I think people need to have this lived experience of what it's like to live a life where you use fewer resources - like I lived in a tiny little space by myself, but I was happier.
00:25:56:12 - 00:26:15:06
Jayne Bryant
There was more connection. I was riding everywhere. I was walking everywhere. If you're on a bike over there, you know where to go. It's not like you're trying to compete with pedestrians and, you know, get punched, or on the road with huge trucks. You know, there's a place for bikes and pedestrians and cars. What's more, way fewer cars.
00:26:15:06 - 00:26:36:03
Jayne Bryant
And they're all electric, for example. But my dream would be - so I'm really excited about this study tour - to take a group of students with us back there to have this lived experience. But I want to take more people. I want it to be a regular thing. I want people who are, you know, making decisions in Perth.
00:26:36:09 - 00:27:00:21
Jayne Bryant
Yeah, Western Australia - government ministers, directors-general. I want them to come with us and be part of the conversations where people who are designing the future, you know, cities and the future apartments are like, oh actually, we need to have much less carbon emissions per person, so therefore we have to design this way. I don't hear many conversations like that.
00:27:00:21 - 00:27:02:13
Jayne Bryant
You know, nationally.
00:27:02:16 - 00:27:13:21
David Karsten
We're a little ways away from that, aren't we? Just a little. Look, you're totally right. I mean, lived experience is invaluable. Yeah. And I guess adding to someone's perspective, right?
00:27:14:00 - 00:27:32:07
Jayne Bryant
Yeah. And I do want to name - I know we're talking about carbon, climate, and I'm actually talking about travel. And I'm going to go to my one of my first professors in Sweden. It's all about systems thinking. And he would say a carrot does not benefit from traveling across the world, but a human being does.
00:27:32:09 - 00:27:32:23
David Karsten
I love that.
00:27:32:24 - 00:27:47:24
Jayne Bryant
Right. We don't need to be getting our stuff - let's live local. Let's be smarter in what we choose to do and how we choose to live. But a human being does benefit from traveling across the world and being in the place with other human beings.
00:27:48:01 - 00:27:59:16
David Karsten
Jayne, can climate anxiety - or a level of it - actually be a good thing? And do we need it to actually motivate sustainability and change in that, you know?
00:27:59:17 - 00:28:26:18
Jayne Bryant
Yeah. Look, I mean, I'm going to say yes, and that's personal experience. If I didn't discover this thing and get upset and stressed about it, I wouldn't have made any change, you know. So I do think there's an awareness that's needed. And I also think that the content is so disturbing that if you actually get it, you're going to be upset about it.
00:28:26:20 - 00:28:46:19
Jayne Bryant
And that's the first step towards making some change. But I think it's really important - there are different choices, right. So you know, the content comes in. You can choose to deny, you know, head in the sand. You can choose to just get depressed and do nothing and say, oh, well, it doesn't matter anyway. And I would argue, but why wouldn't you try?
00:28:46:23 - 00:29:01:18
Jayne Bryant
Isn't it a better life to live? You know? Isn't it a better life to be moving towards something that you value and to try and create something in the world? And I would also argue we can make a difference. We have more power than we think if we choose to use it.
00:29:01:20 - 00:29:11:10
David Karsten
What an enlightening half hour we've had. Thank you so much for bringing us into your world, which is actually our world, Jayne, and thank you for talking with us today.
00:29:11:12 - 00:29:14:17
Jayne Bryant
Absolute pleasure. Thanks for your questions.
00:29:14:19 - 00:29:37:04
David Karsten
In our next episode, we're talking about renewable energy and net zero targets with leaders in the space. Follow us so you don't miss out. You've been listening to The Future Of, a podcast recorded on Whadjuk Noongar boodja and powered by Curtin University. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it. And if you want to hear from more experts, stay up to date by following us on your favourite podcast app. Bye for now.