While the scientific efforts to move to a greener world ramp up, what are the potential benefits of a more human-centred approach to the energy transition?
As our planet grapples with the urgent realities of climate change, the transition to sustainable energy solutions becomes pivotal. But how do we make this transition just, inclusive, and effective?
Today, host Alex Foot is joined by two esteemed Curtin University professors, Professor Peta Ashworth OAM and Professor Petra Tschakert. They break down the complex layers of the energy humanities, the changes in public attitudes towards energy, and the need for an equitable energy shift.
Why the energy transition needs a ‘humanities look’ [06:40]
The benefits of energy literacy [17:58]
The social challenge of ensuring everyone benefits from the energy transition [27:18]
Western Australia’s role in a just energy transition [38:20]
Why action is key to ensuring a just transition [46:11]
Murajuga Traditional Owner Wins Legal Bid to Stop Woodside from Conducting Seismic Blasting.
News Article on Energy Transition Jobs
Curtin’s Centre for Energy Transition
Professor Petra Tschakert
Professor Tschakert is trained as a human-environment geographer and applied anthropologist and conducts research at the intersection of political ecology, climate change adaptation, climate and mobility justice, multispecies justice, energy humanities, transformative sustainability education, and livelihood security. She has abundant experience using participatory methods and community engagement practices for capacity and resilience strengthening for >30 years in Senegal, Ghana, Tanzania, India, Nepal, and Panama, and recently in Western Australia.
Professor Peta Ashworth OAM
Professor Ashworth is a renowned expert in energy, communication, stakeholder engagement, and technology assessment. She has researched public attitudes towards climate and energy technologies, including wind, carbon capture and storage (CCS), solar photovoltaic, storage, geothermal and hydrogen, for almost two decades. An accomplished speaker and educator, she actively promotes energy literacy globally and contributes to policy briefings and educational events.
This podcast is brought to you by Curtin University. Curtin is a global university known for its commitment to making positive change happen through high-impact research, strong industry partnerships and practical teaching.
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au
Host and Content Creator: Alex Foot
Producer and Recordist: Emilia Jolakoska
Social Media: Amy Hosking
Executive Producers: Anita Shore and Matthew Sykes
Curtin University acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which Curtin Perth is located, the Whadjuk people of the Nyungar Nation, and on Curtin Kalgoorlie, the Wongutha people of the North-Eastern Goldfields; and the First Nations peoples on all Curtin locations.
OKAY by 13ounce Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0 Music promoted by Audio Library.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:08
Alex Foot
This is the future of where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better. I'm Alex Foot. American anthropologist Leslie Wyatt once wrote, Everything in the universe can be described in terms of energy. As governments grapple with the realities of climate change, the transition to sustainable energy solutions becomes pivotal.
00:00:22:10 - 00:00:45:16
Alex Foot
But how do we make this transition just inclusive and effective? Today, I'm joined by two esteemed Curtin University professors, Professor Peter Ashworth and Professor Petra Tchakert. We'll break down the complex layers of the energy, humanities, the changes in public attitudes towards energy and the need for an equitable energy shift. If you'd like to find out more about this research, visit the links provided in the show notes.
00:00:45:18 - 00:01:03:16
Alex Foot
Energy is often a future focused subject, and we're going to get to that. But I wanted to start with the past and more specifically, get to know you too, a little bit better before we break into the subject. So, Peta, how did you eventually end up becoming professor here at Curtin? What was it that drew you eventually come to Curtin?
00:01:03:18 - 00:01:23:23
Peta Ashworth
So I'm an old WA girl. I grew up here. I grew up in a little country town called Narrogin and then went to boarding school in Perth and have spent the last 30 years away living in Brisbane, living in Ireland, living in Denmark. But my parents are getting to end of life and so it was a nice time to return, I guess
00:01:23:23 - 00:01:45:23
Peta Ashworth
And this opportunity to be the director of the Institute for Energy Transition came up and was successful in the global service. So it was a fantastic opportunity because I think the energy transition is probably one of the biggest challenges we've got to deal with right now, or are dealing with. Wow. Also Petra, yourself, how did you eventually come to Curtin, you originated from overseas?
00:01:45:23 - 00:02:08:08
Petra Tschakert
Yeah. Yes. So I'm originally from Austria, but I have this North American accent because I spent about 15-17 years in the U.S. I did my Ph.D. there in Arid Lands Resource Sciences and worked at Penn State University and then decided it was time to leave the U.S. and came to Australia to Perth, actually really eight and a half years ago.
00:02:08:10 - 00:02:43:05
Petra Tschakert
And yeah, I joined Curtin a year and a half years ago, so in July last year and the topic of energy humanities was among the very first I heard when I joined Curtin. And yes, it turned out to be a really exciting space and I'm very happy to work in that space. And obviously, you know, it's important and at the same time we have quite a bit of work to do to explain what the energy humanities are and I think we can help with this today also.
00:02:43:05 - 00:03:07:06
Alex Foot
That's what I was getting to. I think a good way to explain what the energy humanities are is to explain where it comes from. And this is open to either of you. Where did the Energy humanities originate from and who did it originate for?
Petra Tschakert
As a as an idea? Because I understand it's relatively new. It is fairly new, but it has origins that go way back.
00:03:07:06 - 00:03:51:11
Petra Tschakert
And I'm happy to explain a little bit. Energy humanities, if you want, is a subfield of a broader field of inquiry called environmental humanities. And Humanities is really everything from philosophy and political science and psychology to geography, which is what I do anthropology, literary studies and arts. So it's quite a diverse field. And so energy, humanities as a subfield of environmental humanities started as a field of inquiry maybe 20 years ago or so in North America in particular, also in Europe.
00:03:51:13 - 00:04:24:04
Petra Tschakert
But the origins go, as I said way back, and an example that I have come across in my own work is that I worked in West Africa in the 1990s. I was leading a development project in Senegal in the mid nineties and then started graduate school in Arizona. Tuscon Arizona, and one of the first classes I or units I took introduced me to the concept of political ecology.
00:04:24:06 - 00:05:07:18
Petra Tschakert
What's one of the politics and ecological sciences management and land use management and what we came across was and that happened in the mid-nineties second half of the nineties. And you may recall that to the energy crisis in Europe, we felt that, but also the political struggles in the Niger Delta, so massive, massive oil extraction territory and the uprising of local community members, particularly the Ogoni people in the Niger Delta and the very brutal execution of Ogoni leaders.
00:05:07:22 - 00:05:39:10
Petra Tschakert
At that time, Ken Saro-Wiwa was the leader. He had retired. He was an author as well, a critical thinker, and he wrote the acceptance speech to the Alternative Livelihood Award that was awarded to him from a prison cell and was executed shortly thereafter. And that example, as I said, that's something I came across when I started graduate school, graduate school in Arizona that really stuck with me.
00:05:39:10 - 00:06:11:03
Petra Tschakert
And that's how I got interested more and more interested in struggles over resources struggles and tension and conflict over extraction, extractive industries. And of course, there are multiple examples around the world. But that's that's how I started in that field. And it's not just something that has colonial ties and roots. It's something that has come with us into the very presence and present, and it's likely to go with us into the future if we're not very careful.
00:06:11:07 - 00:06:39:12
Alex Foot
Yeah, when I heard about the concept, it made total sense. When I think back to how many big policy decisions or conflicts are at a root level over energy and resources, it's like, maybe this does really need its own. Yes. Specific place of inquiry. Peta Why does the energy transition need a humanities look? Well, I think you've probably summarized it whatever transition, particularly around energy people are at its core.
00:06:39:14 - 00:07:06:06
Peta Ashworth
And so how that interaction happens across society is really important. And I think what we've seen I mean, my background is really interested in the integration of science and technology in society, and that's often where contestation emerges. It's interesting. I actually worked for Body Shop many years ago and the Ogoni were part of campaigns that we ran and so the whole Ken Saro-Wiwa I was there when Anita Roddick was made a queen of the Agbayani tribe.
00:07:06:06 - 00:07:38:09
Peta Ashworth
So it's interesting this sort of the legacy issues that actually come and inform going forward. But right now, the scale that's required, the speed that's required is just massive and actually trying to bring people along with that in a way that they feel comfortable is not easy. It creates contestation. And so I think this is where the humanities intersection actually starts to try and unravel, understand what are the values that are at play, what are the conflicts that are at play, and how do you find a way forward?
00:07:38:11 - 00:08:00:09
Peta Ashworth
And a classic example right now is what's going with in the eastern states around upgrading to transmission lines. But it's actually all over the world. There is massive protests right now around, you know, the need to build large transmission lines to integrate lots of renewable energy. And people are just going, hang on a minute. You know, we need to talk about this.
00:08:00:09 - 00:08:21:04
Peta Ashworth
We need to know more. What are the trade offs. And I think this is where we come into play when we're thinking about the sort of the new directions.
Alex Foot
Yeah. And you're kind of talking about public attitudes there. How would you see the public attitudes towards the change over to renewables shift in the last even five years?
Peta Ashworth
It's a great question.
00:08:21:06 - 00:08:42:06
Peta Ashworth
I've been looking at public attitudes through national surveys, but also through a deliberative process. Focus groups both here in Australia and internationally. And when you ask people what do they think? Everybody loves renewables, whether you come from Japan, from the UK, from the US, they'll say, solar and wind, fantastic. But actually what then plays out is quite different.
00:08:42:06 - 00:09:10:00
Peta Ashworth
And what's interesting right now is an element of concern around the speed that we're having to sort of roll this out. But it's not actually. There's also this question about biodiversity and how do we ensure net positive biodiversity. So in actual fact, what we're seeing is some really strong almost preservationist, conservation is actually starting to protest renewable energy projects because of this concern about trade-offs and balancing.
00:09:10:00 - 00:09:34:18
Peta Ashworth
So in general, most people are very supportive of the transition. But then of course it's where is it going to be placed, how efficient is it, how much is it going to cost? Its all of those different questions, yeah that play out.
Alex Foot
Would something like that being the protest I've seen about wind farms offshore wind farms in the ocean and whales or big solar farms, it's a kind of trade off, right?
00:09:34:19 - 00:09:57:15
Peta Ashworth
Absolutely. And I think the other thing that's coming through that plays out and Petra might like to jump in, is this idea of the misinformation that gets thrown around sometimes as well. But you know that that plays a big part where different players will throw out information and people, as we know, will tend to seek out information that reinforces their views, which is where things start to unravel.
00:09:57:17 - 00:10:25:09
Peta Ashworth
And and that's really important. And then the other part is also First nations as rights holders and understanding what happens. So with things like offshore wind, songlines and all of these things, how do we bring in these different components? The other side, I think also we've recently been down Petra and I to West Arthur to work with a community there who, was actually a session on wind farms and they were more wind development, but it wasn't like they were against it.
00:10:25:09 - 00:10:50:09
Peta Ashworth
They were just trying to understand and well, what does it mean? What does it look like? How can I benefit? What are the impacts to our life and livelihood? So I think people are quite open. So while we might see some loud, loud voices protesting, I would encourage and that's what we try to do with our work, is encourage governments to look below that to the broader cross-section and really try and understand what are the questions that they're asking, what are the concerns?
00:10:50:11 - 00:11:18:00
Alex Foot
Yeah, and looking at that cross-section, Petra, I'm interested to know what sort of inequities climate change either has impacted on people now or well into the future. What are the sort of aspects of someone's being or a group that makes them disproportionately affected by the impacts of climate change? It's a bit of a broad question.
Petra Tschakert
It's exactly what I've been working on over the last ten years, so I could give you a lot of insight here.
00:11:18:00 - 00:11:56:10
Petra Tschakert
But I think maybe just to start with a concrete example, it's let's keep it to Perth Metro and then we may just branch out some way and kind of the rest of the world because it is really a matter of scale. A lot is happening here in the context of systemic disadvantage, marginalization, structural disadvantage of communities and we often either lose track of it or avoid touching the complicated political topic of vulnerability and vulnerabilities.
00:11:56:12 - 00:12:29:21
Petra Tschakert
But this is exactly where the pain points are. So to give an example, what does a differential climate impact mean in the context of energy? There is, I think, a very useful concept, which is energy, precarity or energy hardship or energy poverty. And when we think about the word poverty, often we think about poor people elsewhere and we don't often think about the poor people right here, right now.
00:12:29:23 - 00:13:08:04
Petra Tschakert
So how does energy, precarity or poverty or hardship play out here in the context of the housing crisis, where a lot of people don't have adequate housing or no housing at all in the context of increasing electricity prices, where people have to make many people have to make a decision, a trade-off between paying for electricity or paying for food aid or getting their medication.
00:13:08:06 - 00:13:44:24
Petra Tschakert
Electricity is usually the first one that goes because, well, paying your rent is more important. If you don't, you get evicted. But there are many people in a situation who simply cannot afford to cover all these expenses. So energy, poverty, precarity, hardship happens when people either don't have air conditioning, don't have fans that work, are not allowed structurally because they're in government housing or public housing to actually make any modifications in the places they live in.
00:13:45:01 - 00:14:27:00
Petra Tschakert
They live in places that are poorly insulated, that that have no shading when these people cannot afford, don't have air conditioning, other ways of cooling, don't have shade. So blinds outside, don't have trees around their property. These are the ones who suffer first. The same is true for cold winter months. People who purposefully consciously cannot will not afford to cook a meal because they cannot afford turning on electricity is also people who cannot afford heating more than a room or purposefully sleep six people in one room to keep each other warm with body heat.
00:14:27:00 - 00:15:02:17
Petra Tschakert
So that's energy precarity. Is that a result of differential impact of climate change? Yes, because the exposure is the same. We all live in the same place, but we start with very different vulnerabilities. Yeah, if you're structurally disadvantaged, whether you are a rough sleeper, a single parent, if you're somebody who is on a disability pension, if it is somebody who is part of a culturally or linguistically diverse group, homeless people, it's a whole range of people.
00:15:02:17 - 00:15:34:13
Petra Tschakert
And often these are what we call intersecting vulnerabilities. It's not just one. It's an accumulation, a cumulative effect. And these are the ones who often fall through the cracks when we talk about climate adaptation plans that often start at the policy level that are directed to what sectors like, you know, extractive industries or transportation. Often we don't look at the people and we don't look at those who, as some would say, are considered dispensable.
00:15:34:17 - 00:16:04:22
Petra Tschakert
Yeah, And that's the injustice. And I'm really, really concerned about that. And all my work goes towards just adaptation, just transitions and energy justice.
Alex Foot
One example you made me think of there was like the push towards electric vehicles, particularly in London. I know the London Mail was trying to make it more difficult to use a gas guzzling car and how that might disproportionately impact someone who can't afford car like that.
00:16:04:24 - 00:16:37:11
Alex Foot
From your perspective, then, is there a push to try and make these things cheaper and more widely available?
Petra Tschakert
There are various options for various different needs. Yeah, not everybody may need a car, but if the recommendation is to.. I was just talking this morning with a group of seniors in the autumn centre in Rockingham. You know, where do you go when there is a day with 35 degrees over 40 degrees Celsius and some elderly populations may not want to leave their house, so they don't need a car.
00:16:37:13 - 00:17:01:06
Petra Tschakert
But if the recommendation and this is what we often hear from the policy level and that's the rhetoric, is go to the beach, you know, well, who can drive to the beach, who can afford putting petrol in their car to drive? Yeah, who can wrangle five kids into a car. So these are the questions I'm interested in. So I think I think you're right.
00:17:01:08 - 00:17:40:12
Petra Tschakert
Partially it is about making options available to people, making them accessible, making them cheaper, but also to understand in more detail what is it that folks who, for example, struggle with anxiety, struggle with mental disability, what do they actually need? And often it is just a cool place at home. It's a place where they can go and potentially spend four or 5 hours in like a shopping centre, like a library, without getting moved on by the police or security guards.
00:17:40:14 - 00:18:04:04
Petra Tschakert
So in the overall scheme, this all falls on the pro-poor energy solutions. And I think we could do a much better job at it compared to where we currently stand.
Alex Foot
Kind of in that context, Peta, I wanted to ask you about energy literacy. What are the negative impacts of an energy illiterate society or a person? I know you
00:18:04:04 - 00:18:25:18
Alex Foot
You've done a lot of surveying to people to see how energy, energy literate they are, and I'm interested to see what kind of questions you would ask someone to find out whether they’re energy literate or not.
Peta Ashworth
So I guess, you know, there's different levels of of what that means. And I think even the example of transport, you know, public transport is actually a really good, sustainable option, but it can't be for everyone.
00:18:25:18 - 00:18:46:03
Peta Ashworth
So I think there's a whole idea of what fits for different individuals. The other thing we wrote the CSIRO Home Energy Saving Handbook quite some time ago now, but that actually came about from people at that stage. I was working at CSIRO and we'd run some focus groups actually on carbon capture and storage, saying “Should CSIRO invest in this as a tech?
00:18:46:05 - 00:19:02:04
Peta Ashworth
And always when you start talking about a technology, people bring it back to their own own lives. And I always remember this fellow who was an editor of a paper in a country town in Queensland, and he said, You know what, Peta? We're just busy trying to put food on the table and, you know, go to work, we trust
00:19:02:04 - 00:19:25:17
Peta Ashworth
CSIRO can you just tell us what we have to do? And so there also what it worked out to me is this whole idea of, you know, literacy. People come in and out of it at different times. So there's usually trigger points in their lives when they probably need to make these decisions. So buying a car is a really good example and it depends at what time, you know, having the policies in place around that.
00:19:25:19 - 00:19:46:07
Peta Ashworth
So literacy means many things in my world. When you think about contention and those contested realities, I would love to lift people's level of understanding around what is actually involved in the transition and the trade offs. So what are the range of technologies and where do they have a place and where do they not? Now, it won't be the same for everybody.
00:19:46:07 - 00:20:05:01
Peta Ashworth
And in one country it'll be different to another. But that to me is where I think there's a real missing piece in having those conversations. So surveys give us a bit of an idea, but if you read the literature as well, you know, there's this whole idea of pseudo opinions because of course people will have an opinion. But is it a really, is it a realistic opinion?
00:20:05:01 - 00:20:35:07
Peta Ashworth
Because if they don't know much, well, then they're just telling you what they think at that point. You know. So I'm and I think, Petra, you know, this idea of actually running deliberative processes where you take experts, independent experts and this is the role of universities and places like CSIRO where you can actually take the information and let people deliberate, let them listen to hear, ask questions and sort of then start to understand those are and that's the information that I think helps to build the literacy.
00:20:35:07 - 00:20:56:03
Peta Ashworth
But it also helps to provide feedback to government and to industry around what questions, what are people interested in and those sorts of things. So there's an element of literacy of actually having the information available at the right time, you know, and that can be when someone's having a baby all of a sudden and they’re suddenly thinking or in other examples, Yolande Strengers at Monash.
00:20:56:03 - 00:21:30:14
Peta Ashworth
It was around looking after their pets in hot and cold. If we think about natural disasters in response to that, how do we build resilient communities? And I've got a PhD student back in Queensland who's looking at that from the perspective of electricity. So there's multiple ways and you know, you mentioned cold communities, people not from Australia. So you know, and there was classic examples when we're writing the Energy Saving Handbook and doing some behavior change where people from different countries that weren’t used to having access to an electric stove, used to use it to warm their house.
00:21:30:14 - 00:21:49:16
Peta Ashworth
So that's the most inefficient way. If you're living in Victoria, open up your stove and turn it on and then wondering about the price. So there's not a one size fits all. And I think again, the more you can engage and have those conversations, but also in that idea, letting people sort of ask the questions and find out.
00:21:49:16 - 00:22:12:11
Peta Ashworth
But we also need to take a bit of a forward step. And I think this is a role for government and institutions like ours to actually take that information out to people and have the conversations. Yeah.
Alex Foot
Where do you think the general level of understanding of the energy transition is in Australia and you've given great suggestions to improve it, but what do you think it's impacted by today?
00:22:12:13 - 00:22:32:24
Peta Ashworth
Okay, lots of things. Petrol's already talked about rising price. So if you would start a conversation with the broader public, you know, sitting around a table like this and we would often say, well, you know, where do you get your electricity from? A lot would just go that little switch on the wall over there. And that's their first immediate response.
00:22:33:00 - 00:23:01:18
Peta Ashworth
So I remember doing some stuff with some quite, you know, well-educated students around this topic, and they were all about comfort that, you know, they weren't really thinking beyond that. So I think it does once again, it depends. I would say that's really hard to generalize. There would be some that have very strong views around what it means and some would be very against the role of renewables because they like baseload power.
00:23:01:18 - 00:23:19:24
Peta Ashworth
And look what we've done and all of these sorts of things. But I think what we're saying, whenever there's a severe weather impact, you know what we say with bushfires, with floods and so forth, that raises the level of concern and people start, you know, to be questioning it. But what happens is that then a little bit of time goes on and then it becomes normalized and people feel comfortable.
00:23:19:24 - 00:23:55:18
Peta Ashworth
So I think right now what's going to be happening in this summer is going to have a real influence on how things move. And I guess I'm thinking about Australia. We're not even talking beyond that to the broader global South and so forth and some of the challenges that they face.
Alex Foot
Yeah, just on that, on that subject of normalization, are there any things that come to mind that maybe were once completely far fetched or unaccepted in the broader community, but now widely undertaken or done?
Petra Tschakert
Well, I can provide an example, and this is a personal one.
00:23:55:20 - 00:24:41:17
Petra Tschakert
As I mentioned earlier, I've worked in development in the mid-nineties. I was in Senegal and I was there for three years. And when I returned and I came from Austria as I returned to Austria, when I returned, the Austrian population had been introduced to recycling and I had completely missed that because I was gone for three years. And so every apartment complex, every individual house had received various bins, different colours, and people had gone through a full year, or maybe it was a year and a half of educational programs on how to recycle and separate rubbish.
00:24:41:19 - 00:25:08:07
Petra Tschakert
And I was completely overwhelmed because it was totally new to me. I did not know where my old shoes would go with would be regular rubbish or what they'd go into something special. Probably not compost, but I was I was confused. It was new to me. But I realized that everybody around me had quite quickly gotten used to and accustomed to separating their rubbish.
00:25:08:09 - 00:26:02:08
Petra Tschakert
And for me, and it was a really good example of how education can work and where sometimes it is useful to be driven from the top, it was a Governmental initiative across the entire country and I thought how amazing there are also, I think, and bringing it back to the context of of energy transition here and now, I think there are wonderful examples of community organizations, community collectives, energy collectives that have done an incredible job of informing each other, sharing information, providing practical training, whether that is with regards to installing solar or batteries, or simply understanding how to navigate the often competing demands of, for example, solar providers who knock on people's doors or
00:26:02:08 - 00:26:51:16
Petra Tschakert
ring them up. And it's not clear who is, you know, who is legitimate and who is a fake provider. And I think understanding how communities try to enhance their own literacy and enhance their own agency when it comes to decision making processes is something that is quite inspiring. And I certainly could see how how a more top down approach from from the state government or or local government agencies in combination with local communities can facilitate such decision making processes, but also a change not just in behaviour on what we do and when we change light bulbs and when we put in solar, but also what it means actually to support each other in energy decisions.
00:26:51:18 - 00:27:17:12
Petra Tschakert
Can we, we, those of us who are more privileged, generate energy and actually share it with other people who live down the street with us? Currently, that's not possible, but it should be. And I think if such demands come from the bottom up, then I think it is much easier to embark on this massive challenge of the energy transition that, in my opinion, is not so much a technical challenge anymore.
00:27:17:12 - 00:27:49:21
Petra Tschakert
I think we have a lot of know how, even though it's not perfect, but is definitely a social challenge and a political challenge. So if we can put the emphasis there, I think this would help us tremendously and it would also enhance people's ownership over energy futures, energy, visions, what they want, how they want to see it organized and ownership and agency is important and people are much more likely, much more likely, including myself, to embark on something which requires adjustment in our daily lives.
00:27:49:21 - 00:28:11:20
Petra Tschakert
If I can be part of the solution rather than being told you have to do this and this and that, especially if it is done in a non-consultative way.
Alex Foot
It's very interesting you say that because for some reason I was listening to Andrew Forrest give a talk at you a few weeks ago and he said something to the effect of only businesses can solve the climate crisis.
00:28:11:22 - 00:28:33:20
Alex Foot
We've done this, we or I need to be one to solve it. Peta I'd like to get your thoughts on just the sort of what's the balance between that and what Petra is talking about, what we can all do. So I think it's a combination of both. The reason why there's a focus on the large business multinationals is just because of the sheer scale and scope of their emissions.
00:28:33:20 - 00:28:54:21
Peta Ashforth
And always when we were working on things like intelligent Grid, distributed energy, when I was at CSIRO, that technical electrical engineers always used to say it's the C and I we need to focus on the commercial and industrial, because if you look at the emissions profile of those, it's far greater than all of the households put together. So I think that's where that comes in.
00:28:54:23 - 00:29:16:09
Peta Ashworth
But I know a body shop, you know, favourite Anita Roddick would always use “if you think you're too small to make a difference, you haven't been to bed with a mosquito.” And so I think we do need to empower people and people want to be part of the change. Now, some will do it more quickly, like you have the people that are really active and advocates for change.
00:29:16:15 - 00:29:36:03
Peta Ashworth
There's others that are sort of sitting in the middle, and I think this is also where regulation can play a role. If you think about the incentives and the incentivization of solar early on and what a great thing that did to to push it forward, to make it easy. And now so, so many more in Australia. As you know, I think the leading number of rooftop solar.
00:29:36:05 - 00:29:55:16
Peta Ashworth
So it's a combination you'll comment about the toll's in London, I was there not so long ago and actually was with a cabbie who had bought a hybrid car that up until this recent legislation he was okay to drive through the City of London and he said, I'm sorry, miss, I can't go this way. I've got to go this way.
00:29:55:16 - 00:30:16:18
Peta Ashworth
Otherwise it's going to cop a £15 fine. And it might, you know. So there was a classic example of an unintended consequence of what's a new policy. But someone who'd done the right thing only three years before. And if we think about the life cycle emissions of the car, of the embodied emissions, it was it's not a great thing for him to discard that and move to another.
00:30:16:20 - 00:30:50:08
Peta Ashworth
And so we've got to I think this is where we all need to work together and have a plan. But I definitely think industry has a role to play. The interesting thing, there's a great article I read recently about a study about ESG and actually a podcast from her name is Natalie Schultz from Yale and she was talking about ESG investing in this push for, you know, let's all just invest in the green, the good, the great, you know, but she actually made a really good argument and had sort of done the maths that when you're looking at where you really want to make a difference, sure, you can invest in green and that will
00:30:50:08 - 00:31:14:22
Peta Ashworth
make them bigger and larger, more successful. But if you look at the brownfield sites where people are actually meaningfully trying to transition, that investment could probably bring about, what will most likely bring about a much larger emissions reduction.
Alex Foot
Yeah, it's more about it's not getting a new car, it's a look.
Peta Ashworth
Yes, I am actually looking at those. So there are companies that are signalling.
00:31:14:24 - 00:31:41:05
Peta Ashworth
They really are trying to, you know, transition. The classic was the old Dong energy in Denmark, which is now Orsted. It's a wind. So companies do move and we're seeing that. And I think that's again, the literacy. How do we bring people's understanding that actually we've got to help those companies transition? Because actually just what's the word we move selling off assets because that's an easy way to clear your deck.
00:31:41:07 - 00:31:57:22
Peta Ashworth
That's actually not helping because, you know, as Alan Finkel, our former chief scientist, talks about, the person that buys that or the company might be a second tier company and not manage it as well. And so actually companies that are part of the problem but are actually trying to be part of the solution, I think we need to back those.
00:31:58:02 - 00:32:26:23
Peta Ashworth
Yeah. And change the conversation a little bit around that.
Alex Foot
I think I'll open some up to Petra. In your words, what is a just energy transition? Who is it just for?
Petra Tschakert
So just, just to be clear on that means justice so equitable. So we're not just talking about a just transition. So just doing it, it has an implication of justice and equity.
00:32:27:00 - 00:33:09:11
Petra Tschakert
So just energy transition. Who is it for? Well, it really is for all of us. And when I say all of us, this means all us humans, including the many, many, many millions around the world who, as I said earlier, face significant disadvantage. So just energy transition should allow those who currently experience energy, poverty, energy, precarity to be able to cook in a way that is sustainably healthy for them and good for the environment.
00:33:09:11 - 00:33:50:00
Petra Tschakert
It should allow people to commute in a way that does not increase emissions. It should allow people to heat their places, to cool their places as desired, and it should allow everybody to share energy in a way that is more equitable. But it also includes all of us non-human species who populate this planet. So all of us and I have done work in the space of multi species justice, is important because we often don't think about the connections between people and plants and animals.
00:33:50:02 - 00:34:16:03
Petra Tschakert
So just this morning I mentioned earlier we had a group discussion with senior citizens in Rockingham and the connection was very clear. What is it we need to do to increase our resilience in the energy crisis while planting more trees, clearly enhancing energy efficiency in homes. But also increasing tree canopy and cover. And if we don't do that well, animals will lose their habitat.
00:34:16:04 - 00:34:49:15
Petra Tschakert
We already know this. So The seeing the connections not just for us humans, the privileged and the disadvantaged, but also plants animals around us that sustain us. So that's the first part of my answer. The second part of my answer is, well, what is justice? And let me just pick this apart a little bit. So in the field of social and environmental justice, we usually talk about four pillars, and these are all relevant for the just energy transition.
00:34:49:19 - 00:35:18:06
Petra Tschakert
So we talk about distributive justice. So the cost and the benefits ought to be distributed in a more even way rather than great disparities. So it's distributive justice. The second one is procedural justice. So it has to do with taking part in decision making processes. Who has a seat at the table, whose voice is heard, whose voice counts in decision making processes?
00:35:18:08 - 00:36:13:08
Petra Tschakert
And right now we don't have a whole lot of procedural justice. The third one is about recognition, recognizing needs, preferences, values, world views. Those that may not align with ours is fundamental for just solutions. So what are the solutions that we think we and I mean us who are sitting here in this privileged institution, academic institutions. So these solutions that we envision and maybe plan out in detail and maybe even put into a policy plan may not be at all those that people who come with very, very differently lived experiences would put as priority.
00:36:13:08 - 00:36:46:21
Petra Tschakert
So recognizing other values, understanding worldviews, including Peta, you mentioned that First Nations people and what just means for them in, for example, a more harmonious as a way of co-existing with all entities around us is fundamental. So we have distribution, we have procedural, we have recognition, and then that element that is becoming more and more important is restorative justice.
00:36:46:23 - 00:37:26:16
Petra Tschakert
And so if we can restore or first recognize and then restore harm done, whether that is because of poor policies, whether or not that is because of extractive processes that destroy environmental resources. So restoring some sense of reciprocity, healthy coexistence, respectful relationships with the planet, with our neighbours, then I think we are much better positioned to achieve this really, really, really, really tough goal of energy justice.
00:37:26:21 - 00:37:52:16
Petra Tschakert
What I think a little bit about it, like world peace, will we ever, ever, ever have it? maybe not. Does that mean we shouldn't work for it? No. We ought to embrace it. We ought to put all our effort into it and to inch closer. But we have to inch closer on all these four dimensions. Yeah, and that's the goal in terms of inching closer towards it.
00:37:52:20 - 00:38:16:08
Alex Foot
In a context for us here in Perth, Peta, I'd like to ask you about was a role in a just Energy transition because we're in an interesting position or an energy producing state. We have a lot of mining. I read today that our Premier Roger Cook said that WA will have to, in the short term, increase its emissions to smooth out in the long term and send energy overseas.
00:38:16:11 - 00:38:39:17
Alex Foot
What do you think Western Australia's role is in a just energy transition?
Peta Ashworth
Well, it does have a large role. I think again, it's at different scales, you know, so generalizing, if we're thinking you asked about mining, there's a lot of opportunity for WA. I think, you know, all of the maps look at the critical minerals that are going to be essential for the transition.
00:38:39:17 - 00:38:58:14
Peta Ashworth
And one of the biggest issues right now is supply chain. And if we think about justice to the whole human rights of actually fair extraction, those sorts of things, and at least, you know, Australia has a pretty good record for those compared to others. You know, lithium is the classic where there's a lot of opportunity here in Western Australia at the moment.
00:38:58:14 - 00:39:31:11
Peta Ashworth
A lot of that money of lithium is from places like the Congo, which, you know, human rights issues abound. And so there's other elements at play. What else? I mean, there's a whole push obviously, for exporting and the development of a hydrogen, hydrogen industry. And with that comes a whole range of opportunities as well. We do need if if hydrogen is going to be the green hydrogen, that's the aspiration, we need to deploy a huge amount of renewable energy and we need to have it connected.
00:39:31:11 - 00:39:49:18
Peta Ashworth
So you need grids and so forth, which is obviously there's a lot of aspiration. But also what that brings then is the opportunity to value add. And this is where I think the long term goal of actually really making an impact on bringing emissions down is through this idea of, well, what can we do within our existing industries?
00:39:49:20 - 00:40:10:24
Peta Ashworth
What other processes might we include that will actually reduce the overall emissions profile? So rather than just digging up and exporting other the things that we can do here to value add, which would then mean you actually exporting a sort of a refined product and actually taking out one of those, so therefore totally reducing the overall emissions profile of the world.
00:40:10:24 - 00:40:31:14
Peta Ashworth
So there is a two parts to that I suppose. But at the same time, you know, if we go back to our earlier conversation, you still need to see the companies are actually making efforts to reduce their emissions, which is what the safeguard mechanisms trying to do. Like there are again, regulations in place that will help to do that as well.
00:40:31:14 - 00:40:51:19
Peta Ashworth
So there's a huge opportunity. So I think for WA, I think one of the other things that we saw from the Federal government and I think that's playing down is, you know, there's some different ideas of what we might do here to produce parts of the energy generation portfolio. We couldn't do it all. It may not make sense, but it might be parts.
00:40:51:19 - 00:41:14:22
Peta Ashworth
And I think that's you know, you mentioned Andrew Forrest that some of the work that they're looking at doing with FFI and so it's really I think I've got this sort of catch cry decarb WA then you can decarb the world, I think we can take a really systems approach to energy. So not just electricity, all of energy. And we've got the Pilbara, we've got what's going on the South, you've got what's going in the Midwest and you've got you regional and remote.
00:41:14:22 - 00:41:33:06
Peta Ashworth
There's so much opportunity that we can start to test innovation and look at new ways of producing, new ways of extracting all of these sorts of things and really throw that back in and see the things. Not everything will work. And that's okay because with the innovation you do have, you will fail at some things. But we learn from that.
00:41:33:08 - 00:41:54:20
Peta Ashworth
And imagine if we could get, which is, you know, the goal, I think, of what a in power is doing with all our remote communities up north, moving them away from diesel so that they can self-generation through microgrid. If we can crack that, we can take that to Indonesia and we can take it to Africa. So I think they just some of the ideas that come to mind when they think about that.
00:41:54:24 - 00:42:19:12
Petra Tschakert
Yeah, may jump in here. So every time I hear that it's okay to increase emissions in the short term because in the long term, well know exactly what to do to bring them down. Again, every time I hear that, I'm really extremely worried and that's probably comes from my time on the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
00:42:19:14 - 00:42:58:10
Petra Tschakert
I'm not a climate scientist, but I worked closely with climate scientists who run all these models on emission reduction scenarios and global temperatures and Data. So I have quite extensive insight into this. We now know that we as a world, a global community, are going to cross the 1.5 degree threshold within this decade between now and 2030. So just to keep in mind, 1.5 degrees Celsius, 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial times.
00:42:58:12 - 00:43:28:09
Petra Tschakert
So we are going to cross this global threshold within the next couple of years. First, we thought, well, it may be between 2030 and 2040. It's going to be before 2030. The argument that we can afford increasing emissions over the short term and then magically with belief and magical technological solutions, bring it down. What that does and the concept, a technical concept, is known as overshoot.
00:43:28:11 - 00:44:06:19
Petra Tschakert
So we are essentially agreeing to overshoot the 1.5 substantially and then forget that the overshoot will have irreversible consequences for many people and entire ecosystems. So just and this is a reminder from the work I did on the 1.5 special report, an overshoot is not equally distributed. If we talk about overshooting two, three degrees globally, this means eight degrees in the Arctic, right?
00:44:06:21 - 00:44:49:24
Petra Tschakert
So you imagine eight degrees warming the Arctic, what that does to Arctic wildlife. Lively hoods First Nations survival, cultural identity, continuity, sense of belonging. It's going to be gone. So if anybody and it doesn't matter if it's a politician or a neighbour says we should afford, we should allow an overshoot, an increase in emissions to occur over the short term, I would immediately talk about the consequences of going over whether or not whether or not they're reversible likely for many, they're not.
00:44:50:01 - 00:45:21:16
Petra Tschakert
And what that does is not only to provide us with a blind belief in technological solutions, many of which are not not really ripe enough. That includes carbon capture and storage. And it's a distraction of the massive opportunities that we do have. And Peta mentioned some of those here in a way to massively go after renewables, go and invest in rare earth precious minerals that are needed from many of the renewables like solar.
00:45:21:18 - 00:45:50:12
Petra Tschakert
Let's invest in that. There's no time to waste with gray hydrogen or even blue hydrogen. Let's go after green hydrogen where we have renewables at place, because the consequences of overshooting. I don't know if people have thought through that and who is going to take the liability of saying we're going to sacrifice? It's called sacrifice zones, entire regions entire populations, human and non-humans.
00:45:50:18 - 00:46:13:06
Petra Tschakert
Who is going to take the responsibility for that? I would not and I don't suggest anybody else does that. So it's a wrong I think it's a very misleading narrative and we should be very careful when we hear that.
Alex Foot
I guess, just to finish what really needs to happen to have a positive outcome, knowing that that 1.5 increase is inevitable.
00:46:13:08 - 00:46:39:09
Alex Foot
What really needs to happen in the next ten, 20 years to have a positive outcome globally, enslavement, either of you?
Peta Ashworth
We have. Well, I think we have to keep the action happening. The action oriented sort of side of things. And I guess that's what I'm hopeful of here with the institute. Having looked around, there's been a lot of good work done, but to it's still quite so siloed and as I talked about.
00:46:39:09 - 00:47:01:11
Peta Ashworth
So I guess I'm thinking immediately, first of Western Australia, we need to bring that plan into actually very applied actions and that we get those key players that you talked about, you know, that the large industry and so forth, but also not to mention the NGOs and the social services, all of them around the table, having the conversation, making those plans.
00:47:01:11 - 00:47:29:15
Peta Ashworth
It's a little bit what the Danish Board of Technology did in 2006. I was part of that. And so actually then those actions and start implementing and holding each other to account and it's okay that one or two things, not everything will work when you try innovation, but I think that's what we need to do. And then we also it's a responsibility as a developed country to actually be holding out the hand of other other neighbors and other parts of the world.
00:47:29:17 - 00:47:51:01
Peta Ashworth
And I think we've got a group idea through the Institute around Energy and Development, which is looking at the Global South and try, you know, for them it's it's at the base level of actually trying to help them not revert to burning plastics and dung for their cooking fuel to help them transition to clean fuels. So, again, it's a multi-tiered approach, but for me, it's action oriented.
00:47:51:01 - 00:48:14:18
Peta Ashworth
We've got to we've got to stop the talking and the planning, but actually move forward and hold each other to account in that way across all levels. And I'm actually really hopeful that we can do that. I think also we've got to be very careful about the rhetoric. When I think about mining critical minerals, there's often a negativity associated with it, but in actual fact, there's a lot of work that's being done to emissions.
00:48:14:18 - 00:48:52:22
Peta Ashworth
Look at the Electric Mine consortium. They're all trialing different storage options for renewable energy options. So again, let's support that, embrace that, work out what's working and move it forward. You know?
Petra Tschakert
Yeah, well said. Let me add to the global aspect. I absolutely agree. I think as a high income country, we have absolute responsibilities towards neighbouring countries in the region, whether that's in the Indian Ocean Rim, Pacific areas, but also I mean, really worldwide.
00:48:52:24 - 00:49:25:15
Petra Tschakert
I think getting our own house in order, having a strong political will and commitment to actually having an emission reduction target for 2030. And we would be great. We need one. We really do. So this is sadly gone since September. So bringing that back onto the table I think is fundamental. But then I think there's also the responsibility of not exporting our coal to neighbouring countries.
00:49:25:20 - 00:50:12:04
Petra Tschakert
We really should stop doing this and and invest in solutions that are clean, that are inclusive, that are collaborative. There are lots of good examples that come out of communities around the world investing in microgrids, for example, decentralized energy systems. There's the wonderful example which I really, really like. It's the Solar Mamas. So very often it's African women who have been invited to go to training, go for training in India, who learn how to actually put together their own panels and they go back to their own community, is often these are rural communities or disadvantaged urban communities or neighbourhoods.
00:50:12:06 - 00:50:50:02
Petra Tschakert
And then it's these women who are in charge of the solar on their roofs and the batteries, and they can actually fix that. So it's a South-South collaboration. Well, what's the role of Australia in this space? We should offer that. And I think there's a it's part of our moral responsibility. And then I think there are practices that once we have figured them out, for example, in the context of wind energy here, how can they be translated into context that may require different types of consultation.
00:50:50:04 - 00:51:11:04
Petra Tschakert
But going back to the same levels of deliberations that we had here in our own country, and often we think, these are countries in the global South, they will just accept the solutions that we bring over out of gratitude. Well, no, we should not think that way. If we consider deliberations and negotiations as quintessential, while they should be quintessential elsewhere.
00:51:11:06 - 00:51:43:03
Petra Tschakert
And we have tons of examples where such deliberations and negotiations and community for have not happened, Good examples of, for example, in Oaxaca, Mexico, where wind energy is heavily contested and enforced in ways that are really against human rights. So lots to learn, lots to do. Having responsibilities domestically and internationally is certainly something that we as a rich, high income, highly developed country, can and should take on.
00:51:43:05 - 00:52:05:19
Alex Foot
All right. I really like that word at the end. Something to do. I guess the answer is action on all levels. Peta and Petra, thank you for joining me today.
Peta Ashworth
Thanks for having us.
Petra Ashworth
Absolutely. Thank you.
Alex Foot
Well, you've been listening to the future of a podcast powered by Curtin University. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it. And if you want to hear more from experts, stay up to date by subscribing to us on your favourite podcast app.
00:52:05:21 - 00:52:07:21
Alex Foot
Bye now.