With oil costing more than US$100 a barrel, there’s never been a better time to go green. Meet some of the movers and shakers who are funding and fast-tracking clean energy solutions.
In this episode, hosts David and Celeste are joined by David McFarlane and Desire Runganga from the GreenTech Hub – a venture that’s helping to solve global sustainability challenges through novel thinking, commercialisation and tech development.
Jason is the inaugural Director of the Western Australian GreenTech Hub. He’s an economic strategist with a strong understanding of green technology trends and the practical realities of commercialisation.
Desire is an engineer with postgraduate degrees in mining, economics, and law. He’s currently completing his PhD at the Curtin Institute for Energy Transition, focusing on global collaboration in securing critical minerals.
This podcast is brought to you by Curtin University. Curtin is a global university known for its commitment to making positive change happen through high-impact research, strong industry partnerships and practical teaching.
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au
Read the transcript: https://thefutureof.simplecast.com/episodes/energy/transcript
Hosts: David Karsten and Celeste Fourie
Writer: Zoe Taylor
Producer: Emilia Jolakoska
Executive Producer: Natasha Weeks
Curtin University acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the First Peoples of this place we call Australia, and the First Nations peoples connected with our global campuses. We are committed to working in partnership with Custodians and Owners to strengthen and embed First Nations’ voices and perspectives in our decision-making, now and into the future.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:11:02
David Karsten
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better. I'm David Karsten.
00:00:11:04 - 00:00:45:12
Celeste Fourie
And I'm Celeste Fourie. Last week we talked about climate anxiety. This week we look at real action happening to tackle global warming and achieve a low carbon future. The green transition is not only an environmental necessity, it's an economic, geopolitical and technological race. Australia's success depends on how well we can align policy, industry and innovation. In 2025, the GreenTech Hub was launched by Curtin University, Chevron and the state government to fund and fast track green tech.
00:00:45:18 - 00:01:07:13
David Karsten
Joining us today is GreenTech Hub director Jason McFarlane and Desire Runganga, an engineer Curtin student and matter expert at The Hub. We discuss the Hub's exciting work and explore what it actually takes to decarbonise at scale, in Australia and around the globe. If you'd like to learn more about our guests, you can visit the links in the show notes.
00:01:07:15 - 00:01:28:18
Celeste Fourie
Jason. About ten years ago in 2016, 195 countries signed the Paris climate agreement and committed to keeping global temperature rises well below two degrees celsius. If Australia could get a score out of 10 for how well we've actioned that commitment, what would your rating be?
00:01:28:20 - 00:01:53:06
Jason McFarlane
That's a really good question. It's the short answer is we've got to pass mark to 2030. So we're around 45% of the way to, I guess, in terms of time, towards to 2030. And we've succeeded in spending around about 45% of the carbon budget. That's, I guess, been allocated to us through the Paris Agreement to 2030.
00:01:53:08 - 00:02:28:14
Jason McFarlane
However, in terms of 2050 and actually achieving our targets, the change…the 2030 targets are actually the easy bit. One would argue that the, the commitments we made and the commitments that were made by most countries were pretty unambitious. And that really anticipated a very an exponential shift in, I guess, reduction of, of carbon, consumption or carbon, emissions post 2030, particularly into the 2030s and 20 and beyond.
00:02:28:14 - 00:02:45:06
Jason McFarlane
So, whilst we're doing okay now, I think it's pretty reasonable to argue that we're really not even at the starting point yet, and that there's an enormous amount of work to do in the coming years to really, even keep track with the commitments that we're, that we're making globally.
00:02:45:08 - 00:03:00:05
David Karsten
Jason, the emissions were, according to the agreement, supposed to to peak, in 2025 and then beyond the decline to the tune of 43% by 2030. Globally, how are we tracking?
00:03:00:07 - 00:03:31:21
Jason McFarlane
I guess, disclaimer from the outset, I'm certainly not a climate scientist. But I guess from the from the, the media, it's clear that emissions are still on the rise. That we are still experiencing, I guess, the introduction of new carbon well beyond what, we anticipated and that I guess we really haven't even started in the the true journey towards a net zero, economy as yet.
00:03:31:23 - 00:03:50:06
David Karsten
A sobering start. Desire, the US is is the world's second biggest emitter of greenhouse gases. They’ve exited the Paris Agreement earlier this year. What kind of message does that send to the rest of the world? And does it does it send efforts to combat climate, climate change backwards? I mean, we've just heard from Jason.
00:03:50:07 - 00:03:55:13
David Karsten
Yeah. We're not tracking that. Great. The US position, what does that mean?
00:03:55:15 - 00:04:25:06
Desire Runganga
So I think I tend to agree with Jason, and, my answer wouldn't be a yes or no in terms of whether it sends us backwards. But my answer would, my straight answer would be we already struggling even before the US exited. And, I'm going to respond to that because I specialise in mineral economics. So I'm going to respond to this question, using a mineral economist, a critical minerals perspective, which are really the ingredients of, of the transition.
00:04:25:06 - 00:05:05:02
Desire Runganga
So if you look at minerals like lithium, cobalt, rare earths, these are minerals required for, electric vehicles, wind turbines, the batteries. Right? And for us to be able to transition, we need to increase our production of these minerals by between 300 and 800% from what we have currently. And, what we are seeing currently or based on, what we producing currently, we are likely to actually have a de-growth in terms of that production and, go down to about -30% or at best, we're going to increase our production to about, 80%.
00:05:05:04 - 00:05:37:00
Desire Runganga
So that gap between 80 and 800%. Now to bridge it, we need about $600 billion. So I would actually, call your question a $600 billion question because we need $600 billion to invest in mining countries. So in Australia, in southern, southern African countries, Latin America and, and parts of parts of Asia. And traditionally, these finances come from Western countries, the US and particularly the US and, and some European countries.
00:05:37:01 - 00:06:04:09
Desire Runganga
So, yes, indeed, the US exiting the Paris Agreement, has an impact. But the reason why I say we were already struggling is because we it became clear that we needed critical minerals for the energy transition and almost acknowledged widely around 2010 and since 2010 to January, when, the US exited their Paris agreement, we didn't have a plan as to where we going to get that 600 billion.
00:06:04:11 - 00:06:39:13
Desire Runganga
Some might think that we supposed to get that 600 billion, from climate finance, but climate finance has got its own objectives, which are, primarily, primarily targeted on, on adaptation. And, if you look at how much we also we are we are also, arising in terms of climate finance. You can you end up seeing that there isn't much actually actually to draw from there because, from 2020 to 2025, we were raising about 20 billion, a year 20 to 80 billion, against a need of 2 to 5 trillion.
00:06:39:15 - 00:07:06:00
Desire Runganga
So then we can really get that 600 billion from climate finance by 20 2014. And then you have multilateral banks. They can't really finance, the mining industry because of the carbon, profile of their mining sector. And also they can't do that because the mining industry is generally, risky. So at the end of the day, we don't really have, anywhere we can get the 600 billion we need for the mining industry.
00:07:06:00 - 00:07:25:11
David Karsten
So the paradox there is, you're saying that, that critical minerals are an absolute must for the energy transition, yet finance is difficult to come by because of the emissions profile and of the the activity of mining those critical minerals. That sounds like a stalemate doesn't it.
00:07:25:17 - 00:07:37:18
Desire Runganga
Yeah it does. It is indeed. And and that's essentially my end where I'm trying to see how do we get about this stalemate and raise the finance that is, that is needed.
00:07:37:20 - 00:07:41:04
Celeste Fourie
Why did the US leave the agreement?
00:07:41:06 - 00:08:11:08
Desire Runganga
Yeah, based on my research, you would realise that. So in my research, we track we track US, policy from 2017, and we look at critical minerals submissions towards, towards policymaking in the US. It's about, I think, close to 1500 submissions that we analyse. And when you analyse those policy submissions, you can already see that there is the sentiment that globalisation is not helping us.
00:08:11:10 - 00:08:39:22
Desire Runganga
So in as much as now, you have prominent leaders saying it. It was actually in policy submissions around 2017. So yes, there's a, a strong push from citizens and, you know, people that are contributing to policymaking saying, you know, these multilateral institutions are not really helping us. So, I think this that that would be the short answer that, citizens think that much richer instruments are not helping them.
00:08:39:24 - 00:09:22:22
Jason McFarlane
It's interesting, that you have the, the politics of, the, I guess the US and in different parts of the world that you're sort of seeing a little bit of systems, systems push back against transition and against change. But the economics hasn't changed. And what, what we are seeing and what we've heard hearing anecdotally from from colleagues and collaborators in the US is the the reality of the economics of solar and solar deployment, the reality of, the need for long duration energy storage and energy storage solutions, the reality of the need for mass rollout of transit transmission to underpin economic development hasn't, hasn't shifted.
00:09:22:22 - 00:09:49:24
Jason McFarlane
And so, what you're actually saying is that there's a quite a disconnect between, the investment environment and the, I guess the what the market's looking for in the US and what the politicians are saying. And that's sort of playing out, particularly as data centers. And new demand is being sort of really ramping up the need for alternative solutions that the reality is, regardless of what the politicians are saying, you're not going to meet that demand through coal fired power.
00:09:50:01 - 00:10:12:17
Jason McFarlane
You're going to meet it through renewables, because the economics makes sense. And or renewables or nuclear and so low emissions, I guess, energies. So, there's, there's kind of a disconnect in this and a shift shift in focus that even while you're saying the underpinnings of from the Trump administration is they still are investing in lower emissions technologies.
00:10:12:23 - 00:10:16:13
Jason McFarlane
It's just not necessarily so public facing.
00:10:16:15 - 00:10:36:08
David Karsten
Before we talk about one part of a possible solution that's happening here in Western Australia locally, does I, I just want to get back to, to your research. I'm very interested to to know what you found out about what some of the possibilities, what some of the solutions could be in terms of that, that financing paradox that you mentioned earlier.
00:10:36:14 - 00:11:07:08
Desire Runganga
The problem is bigger is well, based on my analysis, I think the problem is bigger because, what you essentially have is you have actors with totally different, interests. You have mineral producing countries and mineral, consuming countries on one end, on, on, on the mineral producing, countries side, they are interested in stable supply chains, affordable and, security of supply.
00:11:07:08 - 00:11:36:06
Desire Runganga
Right. And then mineral, and mineral, producing sorry, mineral consuming countries. That's why you have the US, most Western countries very interested in stable supply. And, supply security and then mineral producing, like Australia, Canada, most African countries, these are interested in, sovereign capability development space and, you know, value addition. Right. So when you look at this, you start to see that it's less of a supply problem.
00:11:36:08 - 00:11:59:01
Desire Runganga
It's more of a bargaining problem. So this is where we, we sort of introduce, the perspective we're introducing our solution from that. The problem is not supply. If you're looking at nickel for example, there's oversupply. So it's not a supply and demand problem per se. It's a bargaining problem. Now if you start to think of it from a bargaining perspective.
00:11:59:01 - 00:12:19:13
Desire Runganga
And if you're familiar with the theory of Gans, there are two very important things that you need, for, for you to be able to have an efficient solution, you need a platform, a credible platform. So if you're talking about a platform, you need a multilateral, platform that is credible, that is trusted by everyone. And the second thing that you need is you need credible rules.
00:12:19:19 - 00:12:49:17
Desire Runganga
Right? So currently we do not have either of the two. We don't have a credible, platform. We don't have, we don't have rules. What we have instead, add three things. We have about 30, international organizations that are working on critical minerals. Around 2010, we had only around ten, and they increased to 30. And none of these, you know, are regarded as credible by, by the people that international experts that we have been, interviewing.
00:12:49:20 - 00:13:16:08
Desire Runganga
And then the second thing that we have is we have too many, ESG rules we have about, 25 frameworks now from 20, from 10 in 2010. And then we also have to sort of parallel financing rules, what I would refer to as Western financing rules. And then Sino financing rules differ very different Western around 7% interest rates and then China rules around 3% interest rates.
00:13:16:12 - 00:13:46:20
Desire Runganga
When you have this system like this, in modeling what happens is actors sort of optimize their, their benefits unilaterally. So no one wants to work together with anybody. And, and at the end of the day, collectively, what you have is, losses for almost everybody. So I would give an example of nickel again, where you have, Indonesia working with, signed rules, and then you have Australia working with Western rules.
00:13:46:22 - 00:14:16:08
Desire Runganga
Right. And then Indonesia manages to, produce nickel, at a cost of production as low as 3,000 USD per ton. And Australia's production costs are around 15,000. Right? Automatically, Australia is kicked out of business. And, in a way Indonesia has to serve as because it has to carry the environmental strain because, a 3000 per tonne is not is not capable to cater for the environmental damage that it's causing.
00:14:16:10 - 00:14:37:00
Desire Runganga
And if you now you look at China is now becoming a what we would refer to as the victim of free riding in in game theory, where is the only financier and everyone is relying on it, so everyone is benefiting from it being the only financier and a long term, there might be consequences that they are going to have to face because of doing that.
00:14:37:02 - 00:14:52:01
Desire Runganga
And globally and particularly for Western countries, what you have is, supply chains are now concentrated. So everyone at the end of the day is losing because we, we can be cut off by China or Indonesia anytime. So at the end of the day, collectively we are all losing.
00:14:52:03 - 00:14:55:07
David Karsten
So that's where we're at. But how do you propose we level the playing field?
00:14:55:08 - 00:15:30:05
Desire Runganga
Well, we need those two things that are those two fundamental things that I said are needed for, for bargaining. And we need, a platform and the, the advantage that we probably have, it's probably an easy fix when you think of a platform, because we used to have the World Trade Organization, the WTO, which has got some residual credibility, the US is to in the WTO and China is to in the WTO and most mineral producing and consuming countries as to in the WTO, and then the second aspect of course is a rules.
00:15:30:07 - 00:15:51:03
Desire Runganga
Right. So like I said, we don't have credible rules, we don't have comparable rules, we don't have science best rules. Everyone is just coming up with their ESG standards. But what's the best what's the best line once? What's the benchmark. So what do we need to start thinking of is how do we come up with evidence? Best scientific ESG rules.
00:15:51:05 - 00:15:54:15
Desire Runganga
So yeah, that would be the two things that we need.
00:15:54:17 - 00:16:08:07
Celeste Fourie
Jason, to help make the switch to green energy. Green Tech Hub was set up last year to support commercialization and technology. Can you tell us who is involved with green tech?
00:16:08:12 - 00:16:42:23
Jason McFarlane
So it we're obviously a relatively nice and program. We're a state government initiative. We're one of the state's five innovation hubs. We're hosted by Curtin University. But essentially set up, through an agreement between the Gorgon joint venture and the state government, to focus on low carbon technologies, and with a real focus on trying looking for ways that we can leverage Western Australia's diverse industry, diverse communities, diverse networks and environments to accelerate high impact technologies across decarbonization, the circular economy and biodiversity enhancement.
00:16:43:00 - 00:16:47:19
Celeste Fourie
And what are some of the projects currently in development that you're really excited about?
00:16:48:00 - 00:17:12:04
Jason McFarlane
The primary way that we're I guess focusing our program is through what's called innovation challenges and what innovation challenges are is when we go to the market first and try and identify what the wicked, the sorts of problems that design is just describing the wicked problems, that require innovation. And so that might be everything from particular, I guess, technologies and storage, for instance, around battery storage or energy transmission.
00:17:12:10 - 00:17:33:19
Jason McFarlane
But right through to the systemic challenges that, prevent adoption. We, we look to scope what and really identify what the and, I guess profile what that challenge looks like and then push that out to the, the global innovation market to, I, invite entrepreneurs from all over the globe to come to us with solutions.
00:17:33:20 - 00:17:49:23
Jason McFarlane
What's so interesting is you sort of always into these kind of conversations with a bit of trepidation. We've had industry judges who are essentially the people assessing these technologies. It's not us assessing. It's it's the sector. And you're always a bit worried that they're going to go on. And so say, I've seen it all before. Yeah.
00:17:49:23 - 00:18:09:13
Jason McFarlane
Great. Thanks. But what we've actually seen is the opposite, that the industry have really engaged with the challenge. We've had just some amazing feedback from industry that, you know, the judging process was some some of the best days they've had in years, in terms of sort of being inspiring and, and really kind of, I guess, opening their eyes to what's going on.
00:18:09:15 - 00:18:30:21
Jason McFarlane
And I guess within that space already, even through the judging process, we're starting to see some of these technologies develop relationships with industry judges, to explore opportunities for progressing their technologies right through sort of late stage piloting, even commercial deployments in the real world across Western Australia. So really quite excited about that.
00:18:30:23 - 00:18:35:00
David Karsten
Jason, what does make the WA context unique?
00:18:35:02 - 00:18:56:05
Jason McFarlane
We're such an interesting market for a lot of sustainable technologies. I won't I won't use the word that someone use the other day that because they didn't use stuff, but, the the observation is we break stuff, that across Western Australia, our kind of, I guess our remote context, different environments. We're pretty rugged.
00:18:56:07 - 00:19:19:07
Jason McFarlane
And it's a good place to deploy and really test something in a, in a pretty robust real world context. We obviously have a really strong industry base and industry that is on the the bleeding edge of, I guess, the climate kind of, I guess energy transition that the scope, particularly as we start pricing in scope two and scope three emissions.
00:19:19:07 - 00:19:49:03
Jason McFarlane
And we do start to see systems starting to really seek solutions. A lot of our industries are very, very vulnerable. And so we've got, a lot of opportunity for early adoption. And I guess the other thing in that is we've actually got deployment opportunities at different scale. So for that as an example, for this long duration energy storage challenge, a lot of our technologies, they've got the ambition to be a 50 megawatt, 100 megawatt plus long duration energy storage solution that might provide a solution of the weeks and months.
00:19:49:05 - 00:20:14:21
Jason McFarlane
But really, what they're at at the moment is 500kW, one megawatt. And that's fine. That's where they are on the on the development journey. What's interesting about WA is we can probably find them a one megawatt customer that within across the state, within, various contexts, remote communities, various agricultural precincts, whatever it might be that we do have the need for solutions of what is actually a commercial scale for these technologies as they develop.
00:20:14:21 - 00:20:42:02
Jason McFarlane
So we not only a sort of, I guess, in a lot of a lot of cases, what the market's asking for is those technologies to somehow jump from 500kW, proof of concept through to a 20 megawatt solution. What we can actually do is help these technologies find a commercial path where they don't have to dilute, their equity and actually generate revenue and prove themselves up in the real world at varying at appropriate levels of scale to get them to where they need to be.
00:20:42:02 - 00:21:01:05
Jason McFarlane
So I think that's that's a real opportunity for us. I think both a Western Australia, but actually Australia more generally, we are we have the opportunity to be a real deployment partner for Green technologies that we don't have to necessarily invent it. But what we can do is test, trial and scale, tech. And I don't know that we value that as yet.
00:21:01:06 - 00:21:03:16
Jason McFarlane
And that's something that really, really excites me.
00:21:03:18 - 00:21:12:16
Celeste Fourie
How can we get companies on board with going green with their growing profits and objectives that they have to meet?
00:21:12:18 - 00:21:35:19
Jason McFarlane
The systems change that's coming means they have no choice. The reality of mandatory reporting, which is just starting to come in, and in sort of the last 12 months and really is going to roll out over the next few years, means that there'll be a lot shone on the real, the genuine carbon footprint. And we're already saying, I will see, be quite rigorous in enforcement, of the integrity of those reports as well, which is fantastic.
00:21:36:00 - 00:22:07:05
Jason McFarlane
So we need to we're starting to see an accurate reflection of impact, not only with scope one emissions, but also scope two and scope three. I think the other thing is that we've only just got to look at the last couple of weeks and the, the, the vulnerability of, a lot of supply chains and a lot of operational activities, to a shock in not only the price but the supply of diesel we've actually seen a mindset in, we actually have to close and send the workers home because they can't get enough diesel on the site.
00:22:07:07 - 00:22:36:20
Jason McFarlane
And all of a sudden, the shifts, I think the business priorities, if I was sitting on a board and we're starting to do the sort of, you know, annual risk, profile of, of the company, we need to start to take into account, our vulnerability to price shocks, our vulnerability to reputational damage, a vulnerability to simply, I guess, being losing, sort of an early adopter advantage that comes with, I guess, operating in this environment.
00:22:36:20 - 00:23:02:13
Jason McFarlane
So I think that I think the, the mechanisms are in place, we will see some laggards, but I think the other piece there is we as consumers and we as I guess, regulators and policymakers need to incentivize and shine light on the people that are adopting and the people that are kind of, I guess really seeking to push the push, push the boundaries of what's possible in our context.
00:23:02:15 - 00:23:25:16
Desire Runganga
I think, I guess working with, with, the green tech hub. One thing that I've learned is, that, you know, industry is not going to just move from, fossil fuels to, the alternatives because they are told to do so. They are going to do that because, you know, the alternatives are economically viable and they, they are technically sound.
00:23:25:18 - 00:23:48:15
Desire Runganga
So I guess what we need to do is, of course, to invest in platforms like the Green Tech hub, so that we test and, deploy and demonstrate that, you know, these technologies are actually, technically feasible and economically sound, here in Australia. And then we can sort of scale, globally.
00:23:48:17 - 00:24:13:23
David Karsten
I mean, I'm just going to say that, that, and when you're talking about that in an industrial context, that that makes complete sense. But, as, as Jason has just pointed out in the last couple of weeks, we've actually seen consumer demand having a very real say as well, even even in the context of, of office chat, you're hearing people, actively searching out public transport as a, as a, as an alternative to driving their cars.
00:24:13:23 - 00:24:27:08
David Karsten
This is this is where the rubber hits the road. Consumer wise. So that's also been is that also, I guess, one part of the equation, consumer demand, does that play into, into these decisions at all?
00:24:27:10 - 00:24:50:22
Desire Runganga
It's it's kind of sort of gets me back to critical minerals. There is, you know, widespread talk about ethical sourcing. And one of the issues that, has been, you know, topical is, what's the demand for ethically sourced, critical minerals or products that, you know, developed from ethically sourced, critical minerals.
00:24:50:24 - 00:25:25:00
Desire Runganga
And I think the last time I checked, the statistics were around, 15%, if I'm not mistaken. Which is which is okay. But I think the problem, again, is not simply demand, but or what consumers are saying. But it's also in terms of how do we make, the, the, the ethically sourced products or, you know, these products competitive in terms compared to other products that are not ethically sourced.
00:25:25:00 - 00:25:39:08
Desire Runganga
So in the same in the same way we saying, how can we make, energy, ethically, as what, clean energy, competitive with, energy derived from oil and gas.
00:25:39:10 - 00:26:15:07
Jason McFarlane
And that's something I guess we, we have a conversation a lot with the innovators about is, I mean, it's certainly played out, in markets all over the world is that the market won't necessarily buy a low carbon product. They'll buy a product which is cheap. And so whilst we're we're very interested in focusing on the the impact and the footprint associated with a technology or a solution, the reality is safer, long duration energy storage, the that has to compete with a tank of diesel out in the bush, or that has to compete with the cogen gas cogen plant, which is really how we're really dealing with that, that, that need right now.
00:26:15:07 - 00:26:36:21
Jason McFarlane
So project economics becomes really important. You don't have to meet it quite yet, but you have to show that you're going to be competitive in that space. And part of that as well is societally we've got to price in the, the impacts of the higher carbon technologies ultimately in one form or another, so that we can bring the price down, of these alternatives.
00:26:36:21 - 00:27:08:19
Jason McFarlane
It's not just about making the alternatives cheap. It's it's over time increasing the cost. And at the moment, a lot of our fossil fuels, are subsidized quite heavily, systemically, both with, you know, nationally but also internationally and, over time, we have to if the systems change to work, we actually have to start pricing in, the impacts of those technologies, of those, I guess energy sources, more and more, otherwise it just we simply won't get there.
00:27:08:21 - 00:27:31:15
David Karsten
You look, you guys are absolutely right. That conversation that's being had at the moment about about petrol prices is about price. It's not about an ethical change to a to an alternative. It's about it's costing me more to get to work every day. So yeah. Yeah, it's an economic reality. Desire did you want to talk to us a little bit more, a bit about your day and, and where you're at with that and, how it's progressing?
00:27:31:17 - 00:27:55:18
Desire Runganga
So I guess I've already talked about, you know, the core issues about my research. Maybe I'll briefly talk about, you know, what we have done. So, we essentially started with looking at the concept of criticality, which is the subject or the, the field of study that is used to classify minerals as critical or strategic.
00:27:55:23 - 00:28:38:08
Desire Runganga
And we're trying to understand, how the assessments affect global cooperation. So you have this field of study which is purely technical and mathematical. This is, mathematical modeling that is done, but how does it affect cooperation? So then from there, we went on to sort of try and understand, how, experts globally interpreting it. So because these are very small population, a group of experts that are actually doing the modeling, and then there is a larger group of people that sort of interpret the findings in their own way in terms of what does criticality mean to them?
00:28:38:10 - 00:29:15:00
Desire Runganga
So there we were interviewing experts. So we interviewed about, 40 experts. Internationally, across around 20 countries. And then we started looking at, critical minerals submissions, like, I was talking about the, about the US. So we looked at, Australian submissions, South African submissions, US submissions and European Union submissions. So from there, we simply trying to understand what does criticality mean for these countries and what does criticality mean from a mineral producing country perspective and from a mineral consuming, country, perspective?
00:29:15:05 - 00:29:19:10
Desire Runganga
And, yeah. Then we go back to what I was saying earlier.
00:29:19:12 - 00:29:50:04
David Karsten
So based on on all of your research, is there, is there an appetite, I guess, for, dare I say, a global policy, on your change and, I guess, global policy on the categorization of criticality, even though it's quite country specific. Is it is there any way of of finding a way to collaborate and for the betterment of, of, of a global outcome and, and will your report have an influence on, on on this sort of policy?
00:29:50:06 - 00:30:26:13
Desire Runganga
Hopefully, yes. Any PhD student would say that, that their research is going to have impact. But, I wouldn't say there is appetite to have like, you know, criticality assessments at an international scale. What you have is essentially clubs trying to harmonize their criticality assessments for a, for instance, the European Union to trying to see so what's how critical minerals for the union or you have the mineral supply partnership, which is a partnership between the US and most Western countries trying to see.
00:30:26:18 - 00:30:50:13
Desire Runganga
So what's our critical minerals from our perspective, or you have the, the BRICs, China and these partners trying to sort of assess what our critical minerals from our perspective, the problem with these clubs is that, there's no homogeneity. If you're looking at, for example, the MSB, you have Australia and Canada, these are mineral producing countries.
00:30:50:17 - 00:31:16:21
Desire Runganga
They are not consumers. So their interests are totally different from us, interests. And this is where I was getting sort of pushback from, experts. I was interviewing from Canada and and Australia is saying again, the finance problem that we have been promised finance from our Western partners, but in reality, it's just talk and talk and talk, all of that, all over again.
00:31:16:21 - 00:31:39:24
Desire Runganga
But we really don't see the, the outcome of these, of these promises. So and then if you look at BRICs again, China, we, we in our analysis, we actually don't classify it as we classify it as both a mineral producer and a mineral consuming country. So then China and Zimbabwe, you can look at them from the same perspective.
00:31:40:01 - 00:32:12:21
Desire Runganga
Or Zimbabwe's not in breaks of course, but say China and South Africa. You can look at them from the same perspective because they have totally different, different interests, because China is now the biggest consumer of critical minerals. So the question of what this way, in terms of what we propose is we need one inclusive platform that can be able to sort of harmonize interests from the perspective of mineral producing and mineral consuming countries, not from the perspectives of alliances or or geopolitical lines.
00:32:13:01 - 00:32:41:13
Desire Runganga
And then from the perspectives of, you know, developing countries or, you know, high income countries. So, there has been talk about, having the WTO at WTO, platform and this is something that we also recommend that we need a critical minerals agreement within the WTO. Where are we going to have a technocratic panel that is going to come up with the, scientific evidence, best ESG panels.
00:32:41:13 - 00:33:02:01
Desire Runganga
I was talking about the rules that we need for the game. Right. And then they are going to, sort of because we kind of also have rules that blanket the Drews, because where South Africa is as a mineral producer is not the same place as China is in terms of, what's realistic in terms of ESG and South Africa is not the same with what's realistic in China.
00:33:02:05 - 00:33:20:14
Desire Runganga
So what we need is sort of a tiered system where it's, you graduate from one stage to another and all these countries need to sort of come up with, you know, long term plans that we are here by 2050, in terms of our ESG will be we want to be here and this is what we're going to put in place to get there.
00:33:20:16 - 00:33:41:17
Desire Runganga
And as they graduate from one point to another, then they unlock finance. Because the problem with finance currently is that no one wants to finance where there is high ESG risk. But then the problem is, is it becomes a chicken and egg dilemma because these countries, these countries cannot address the high ESG, problems that they have because they don't have finance, they need the finance to address that.
00:33:41:22 - 00:34:04:22
Desire Runganga
But then, finances are saying we want you to address that. So sort of having that tiered system helps them to say, we are here. But our next step is going to be this. The moment that I knock that step, then they unlock. They also unlock, unlock finance. But currently I would say we don't necessarily have a platform to do these critical assessments, criticality assessments on a global scale.
00:34:05:03 - 00:34:10:00
Desire Runganga
Now that we have a platform to have this beginning to take place.
00:34:10:02 - 00:34:29:08
Celeste Fourie
This is going to be a very interesting space to watch, especially the next four years as we go to 2030. I have a question for both of you. How hopeful are you that Australia and the rest of the world can transition to green energy and achieve net zero?
00:34:29:10 - 00:34:32:11
Desire Runganga
00:34:32:13 - 00:35:16:16
Desire Runganga
I think I'm I'm really hopeful. Yeah. Inasmuch as I acknowledge that we have been struggling, I think one of the reasons why I'm hopeful is because I've been working with, with the Green tech hub, and I've seen the, the kind of innovations that are coming out there and the zeal that innovators have, so I know that maybe for me, the concern is whether we're going to get the trend, we're going to get the transition, but is whether we going to produce the critical minerals required for these technologies, for these innovations and, you know, mobilize the finance requires to demonstrate pilot and, you know, deploy these technologies at this scale
00:35:16:20 - 00:35:42:02
Desire Runganga
that we can meet our net zero targets by by 2050 if we are able to, you know, do this, provide the scientific evidence required, you know, make sure that, you know, our solutions are economical and technically physical, feasible. Then it becomes a question of political will. And I guess, again, with the right information, citizens, globally in Australia or elsewhere will be in their place.
00:35:42:03 - 00:35:53:01
Desire Runganga
It will be empowered to sort of, encourage governments and politicians to sort of move towards, the right energy transition policies.
00:35:53:03 - 00:36:16:02
Jason McFarlane
Yeah. I, I couldn't agree more. I think to a certain extent the ingenuity is the easy bit. And I think that we that human ingenuity, human innovation, the technologies that we need, in many cases are already there. What we need is the systems change and the systems to be able to accommodate and adopt at scale those sorts of technologies.
00:36:16:02 - 00:36:37:20
Jason McFarlane
And, I guess, you know, being humans, we're we're pretty impatient with systems. We sort of think that we can change things and steer the ship very quickly. The reality is that whether we're talking about energy, we we're about to embark on a low carbon construction materials challenge, innovation challenge. We're talking about trying to disrupt concrete that's been around for a while.
00:36:37:22 - 00:37:18:19
Jason McFarlane
And, you know, it's a big it's a big ship to turn. So it's, there's there's really I guess there's the there's a need to sort of really be thinking about the systems level. I guess innovations that are needed. And a lot of that comes down to human capital. I think that as we sort of move into the next, next, decade, you sort of see really traditional, low risk tolerant and incumbent systems, start to kind of really, shift in the way that they adopt new, new and novel technologies and new and novel solutions.
00:37:18:21 - 00:37:39:15
Jason McFarlane
I think I mean, the, the, the classic one for me around that is just looking at how energy transition with this. That's the network operators are some of the most conservative. There's you know, there's no tolerance for failure in that industry whatsoever. They've kind of moved through the bargaining denial stages of grief. Now they're at looking for what the what the solution looks like.
00:37:39:15 - 00:37:58:03
Jason McFarlane
And, and you see network operators being some of the people that are really seeking to accommodate. I think construction is going as a ways behind that. I think that there's different sectors that are that are in various stages of that transition, but ultimately the momentum and the inertia is is starting to shift. And, there's real opportunity in that space.
00:37:58:08 - 00:38:21:19
David Karsten
That's, that's, that's a really hopeful tone to, to finish up on there. Jason, what I would like to know from, from either of you or both of you is, is it also a generational thing in within industry, too, because you know, with, with, younger professionals coming through, there are generation that stand to lose a lot more, really, if we don't work this stuff out.
00:38:21:21 - 00:38:52:05
Jason McFarlane
Absolutely. I think, I mean, there's, there's a different skill set as well. You've just got to look at the opportunities that I it's a challenge for, in climate, certainly around energy consumption, but it also opens up a myriad of new solutions to intractable problems. Then it might change the demand curve on a whole bunch of the things we need to actually sort of, I guess, realize, net zero commitments and ultimately a more sustainable future.
00:38:52:07 - 00:39:15:15
Jason McFarlane
The if you're, you know, a later stage, you let a subject create you probably not the people that are going to be you necessarily utilizing those tools to their fullest extent. So I do think as you know, particularly given the tech shift that that's coming, and just, I guess the assumption of what normal looks like, someone said to me a long time ago that the extraordinary becomes normal very quickly.
00:39:15:18 - 00:39:38:01
Jason McFarlane
And I think with saying that, you know, if even if you look at just the proliferation of rooftop solar or, proliferation of the percentage of renewables on the grid or the adoption of battery technologies, electrification of vehicles, you know, ten years ago to see an RV on the road was absolutely exceptional. Now it's now it's normal and it's going to, you know, actually become the the majority over time.
00:39:38:03 - 00:39:53:21
Jason McFarlane
I think those, those shifts, really do mean that. Yeah. Generationally the normal. So, you know, the students, the Curtin students of today, is very, very different to the, the normals of the current students that he's got.
00:39:53:23 - 00:40:00:02
Celeste Fourie
Thank you. Jason. And as I for your time, it's been really interesting and we appreciate all the insights.
00:40:00:04 - 00:40:01:22
Jason McFarlane
Absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.
00:40:01:24 - 00:40:10:20
Celeste Fourie
And we have another one lined up to you as well. Our next episode is on circular Economy and Waste Innovation. So make sure you tune in.
00:40:10:22 - 00:40:26:05
David Karsten
You've been listening to the future of a podcast recorded on one Jack booyah and powered by Curtin University. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it. And if you want to hear from more experts, stay up to date by following us on your favorite podcast app. Bye for now.