The four-day work week sounds ideal, but is it realistic for all of us?
The four-day work week sounds ideal, but is it realistic for all of us?
Seven decades ago, Australia moved from working six days a week to five. Many of us now think it’s time for an update, with the idea of a four-day work week gaining traction around the word.
A shorter work week has been shown to boost productivity and mental health, but critics argue it’s a 'white-collar fantasy' that’s unrealistic for many industries.
Our host David Karsten is joined by Professor Julia Richardson to explore the pros and cons of a shorter work week, and how likely it is to be implemented in your workplace.
Professor Julia Richardson is the Head of the School of Management and Marketing at Curtin University and a recognised expert in careers and human resources management.
She has enjoyed a global career in the UK, Singapore, Japan, Indonesia, New Zealand and Canada, and has won multiple awards for her research and teaching. Julia’s current research focuses on the future of careers, career sustainability, and work-life balance.
This podcast is brought to you by Curtin University. Curtin is a global university known for its commitment to making positive change happen through high-impact research, strong industry partnerships and practical teaching.
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au
Hosts: David Karsten and Celeste Fourie
Writer:Zoe Taylor
Producer:Emilia Jolakoska
Executive producer: Natasha Weeks
Curtin University acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the First Peoples of this place we call Australia, and the First Nations peoples connected with our global campuses. We are committed to working in partnership with Custodians and Owners to strengthen and embed First Nations’ voices and perspectives in our decision-making, now and into the future.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
00:00:00:06 - 00:00:10:10
David Karsten
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.
00:00:10:12 - 00:00:35:08
David Karsten
I'm David Karsten. Seven decades ago, Australia moved from working six days a week to five. Many of us now think it's time for an update with the idea of the four- day work week gaining traction around the world. A shorter work week has been shown to boost productivity and mental health, but critics argue it's a ‘white collar fantasy’ that's unrealistic for many industries, such as health care, education and hospitality.
00:00:35:10 - 00:00:53:21
David Karsten
And with us today to explore how the four-day work week could really work is Professor Julia Richardson. Julia is the head of the School of Management and Marketing at Curtin University, and a recognised global expert in careers and human resources management. If you'd like to find out more about this topic, you can visit the links provided in the show notes.
00:00:53:23 - 00:01:09:12
David Karsten
Julia, should we get the basic conceit of the four day working week clear. First, it is not. It is not a point eight workload in four days. It is a full -time five-day work load in four days.?
00:01:09:12 - 00:01:24:10
Julia Richardson
Yes. Yeah. So that's if it's a compressed work week. So you're compressing five days into four days and expectations around work what you would normally be expected to achieve in five days. You've now got to achieve it in four days.
00:01:24:12 - 00:01:29:10
David Karsten
When did this idea, of the four day work week gain a bit of momentum?
00:01:29:16 - 00:01:39:21
Julia Richardson
Okay, so interestingly, it's not a new phenomenon. It actually first came out around the 1970s, in fact, last century, would you believe? Yeah.
00:01:39:21 - 00:01:42:08
David Karsten
Can you imagine? It's positive. It's positively ancient.
00:01:42:09 - 00:02:03:12
Julia Richardson
It is indeed. And so this is in the US around truck drivers delivering oil and gas around the US. So they compressed what was a five day work week into four days. And then it sort of died a bit, a little bit of an ebb. And then it really came up again in around 2008. A resurgence of popularity and then went back down again.
00:02:03:18 - 00:02:13:04
Julia Richardson
And then it really came about much more popular with regard to organisations and individuals looking for a four day work week just after COVID around 2020.
00:02:13:08 - 00:02:14:12
David Karsten
We all got a taste, didn't we?
00:02:14:14 - 00:02:15:18
Julia Richardson
Didn't we just.
00:02:15:18 - 00:02:28:04
David Karsten
At those different, sort of peaks and troughs, were there different responses that were being garnered from those different periods of time or, or was the response fairly similar across those different, I guess, experimental phases?
00:02:28:04 - 00:02:56:13
Julia Richardson
Yeah, pretty similar. Although more recently, obviously with the advent of technology and the the extent to which an employer can monitor one's work performance much more stringently, I think now it has a different format and obviously different expectations. So I think with regard to surveillance or monitoring of work performance, and also been lots of changing expectations from employees as well in terms of what they're looking for, their work experience.
00:02:56:16 - 00:03:06:10
David Karsten
Well, there are definitely two sides of the equation. What are the benefits of this four day week work arrangement for both employees and businesses?
00:03:06:12 - 00:03:31:11
Julia Richardson
Okay, so if we look at the employee, for example, it means that one can have a shorter work week. So obviously taking your Friday off or you may in fact be taking your Monday off instead. So with respect to that, it can be very beneficial for the employee because they've got the shorter work week, they have more time to take care of personal responsibilities, not just family and caregiving, but also one's hobbies and interests and so forth.
00:03:31:13 - 00:03:55:19
Julia Richardson
So that can be really helpful. I think also from an employer perspective, lots of different benefits. So for example, it could be that this is a selling point. When we're trying to recruit employees, we know that an increasing number of people want a four-day work week. So it can be a significant selling point when you're trying to get people on board, trying to recruit the high calibre employees.
00:03:55:22 - 00:03:59:09
Julia Richardson
So I think there are benefits for both parties.
00:03:59:11 - 00:04:28:14
David Karsten
I've been speaking with a colleague who has, in the last 12 months, switched to this arrangement. And, and she has noted a heightened sense of efficiency. Of course, she needs to, to be more efficient in her role in order to to complete the workload within that four day period. But that is a good thing. She's a she's, I guess was her observation was we tend to fill out, and pace our workload according to how much time we have at our disposal.
00:04:28:17 - 00:04:33:11
David Karsten
That's her observation. Is that is that is that a fair sort of observation across the board?
00:04:33:12 - 00:05:07:02
Julia Richardson
It is indeed a fair observation. So it's like with anything, you know, once you've got a new work arrangement or a new anything, then you're going to be much more self-aware. You're going to be much more observant about what you're actually doing. And you've also got that increased impetus to perform at a high level, precisely so that you don't lose this benefit, because, of course, an employee is significantly aware that if they were to fall back on their performance, then the four-day work week might well be taken away from them and they're back to working five days.
00:05:07:03 - 00:05:14:04
Julia Richardson
So you've got that additional incentive in order to hold on to that perk. So I think that's very, very important.
00:05:14:07 - 00:05:39:10
David Karsten
It's something that you also notice, with parents of school age children who are working, to school hours and, and have been able to come to an arrangement with their employer. They really do, have an efficiency about their approach, and there's no mucking around. They come in and they know that I've got a deadline to meet, which is usually around 2.45 or whatever it really is.
00:05:39:12 - 00:05:43:14
David Karsten
You know, the sharper focus that you mentioned is, is definitely the case, isn't it?
00:05:43:15 - 00:05:51:16
Julia Richardson
Absolutely. Because, yeah, I think the important thing is you're very much aware that this is some flexibility, that you've reached an agreement with your employer.
00:05:51:20 - 00:05:52:08
David Karsten
It's a deal.
00:05:52:09 - 00:05:57:08
Julia Richardson
It's absolutely a deal. And in some respects, it's what we would call an ideal. An ideal.
00:05:57:10 - 00:05:59:11
David Karsten
I see what you did there.
00:05:59:13 - 00:06:21:01
Julia Richardson
An ideal in the sense of, you know, it's a deal that I have come to with my employer to have increased, employability, you know, so there's what we would call a psychological contract that I'm not going to let you down. You've bestowed some trust upon me to fulfill this new work arrangement, this new work design. So I think that's very important.
00:06:21:01 - 00:06:40:11
Julia Richardson
We do know employees are very appreciative of these things. They're much more likely to to stay on. They're less likely to, you know, hand their notice in and go work for another employer. Specifically, if another employer, regardless of how much money they're getting, if the new employer is not actually going to give them this four-day a work week.
00:06:40:11 - 00:06:44:02
Julia Richardson
So it's very much seen as an employment perk.
00:06:44:04 - 00:06:53:17
David Karsten
Time is precious and and what my colleague has also noticed noted that outside of work in this arrangement , her mental wellbeing has, has improved.
00:06:53:19 - 00:06:54:14
Julia Richardson
Yep.
00:06:54:16 - 00:07:06:13
David Karsten
And that also her life is less dominated by work and that has been a really welcome outcome. She's happier and lighter for it. But then on the flip side, is more focused when she's at work.
00:07:06:15 - 00:07:32:01
Julia Richardson
Yeah, I think that's a really important point because often times what I might call a career identity or a broader sense of identity is dominated by work. So we see ourselves very much with respect to the place where we spend the vast majority of our working life. So if you have another dimension to your identity, another interest outside of work, then you're going to have a much richer life experience.
00:07:32:01 - 00:07:53:19
Julia Richardson
And I think this is very, very important for employees. However, we do have to be careful with regard to the long term implications of working longer hours. If we've got this compressed work week, can this be sustained over a long period of time? Because we know that it's much more intense. We know that you have to self-regulate much more.
00:07:54:00 - 00:08:12:14
Julia Richardson
Can you sustain this over years? So we have to be very, very careful. And I think the important point here is that the employer has to come to the table. It's not just a set and forget what support systems, what direction, what information can we give to employees in order to make it work.
00:08:12:14 - 00:08:21:15
David Karsten
In terms of that long term sustainability, Julia, have there been longitudinal studies that that, are revealing certain outcomes?
00:08:21:18 - 00:08:41:18
Julia Richardson
Yes, very much so. So, for example, we know that the four day a week has been implemented in places like Ice as far away as Iceland, the UK and Spain and New Zealand and so forth, as well as some employers in Australia. And what we do know that over time, it may well be that there could be problems further down the line.
00:08:41:19 - 00:09:03:06
Julia Richardson
Again, with respect to the implications for work life balance with respect to the intensity of work. So you're feeling much more exhausted because you're actually doing longer hours and you're not actually pacing yourself. And in some instances, that could be a reflection of a lack of support or a lack of frameworks, a lack of guidance from the employer.
00:09:03:08 - 00:09:33:04
David Karsten
Julia, the the benefits, that seem very attractive. And, and you've highlighted, I guess perhaps the flip side of that, the, the intensity required. But but I think by and large, anyone offered this opportunity would most likely embrace it. Now, is this an opportunity that is feasible for all industries and all contexts of work?
00:09:33:06 - 00:09:54:14
Julia Richardson
Yeah. Great question. And the simple answer is no, it isn't. So it depends very much on your business model. It also would be impacted, for example, who are your customers? Who are your clients? We know I know that this can be particularly problematic in what we're calling a 24- seven expectation for on demand delivery of goods and services.
00:09:54:16 - 00:10:26:03
Julia Richardson
So any business model has to take into account not just what the employees want, but actually what the clients or the customers are, what their business model is. We do know some organisations are offering it, like professional service firms, for example. Also in some sectors, for example, the retail retail sector. But it has to be a precise calculation on behalf of the employer to see whether or not it makes it work, so that in terms of their stakeholders, they have to balance the needs of all their stakeholders to precisely to make it work.
00:10:26:07 - 00:10:40:13
David Karsten
I'm sure there are listeners right now saying, look, this is this is a really great idea theoretically, but it actually doesn't even fit the type of industry or the type of role that that I'm in as well. That's that that's an issue with this theory isn’t it?
00:10:40:15 - 00:11:07:06
Julia Richardson
Absolutely. And and it's very much like, for example, with the idea of working from home. Another flexible work practices. The point is that not all jobs can be done from the home space. Some can, some cannot. So we have to be very careful. I think, in terms of establishing the expectation of the employee, if you've got a lot of client , in-person, face to face work, then obviously working from home is simply not going to be able to be you.
00:11:07:08 - 00:11:20:23
Julia Richardson
But then again, that's about having a conversation with your employer about what is actually going to work, because at the end of the day, the employer and the employee have to make sure that work is done in the way that is required to be done.
00:11:20:23 - 00:11:44:07
David Karsten
Where some industries and organisations are able to embrace this. There are business groups that are saying, and you talked about this being an ideal, earlier that that this four day work week is, is a populist bubble, and that workers want to have their cake and eat it, too. What are your thoughts on that? Is it is it as an as an ideal?
00:11:44:07 - 00:11:46:00
David Karsten
Is it flawed?
00:11:46:02 - 00:12:12:05
Julia Richardson
I think we have to be really careful because previously, you know, when we went down from the six day a week, went to the five days, you know, that could have been characterized in the same way. I think that what is happening and this has been happening over many, many years is the point is that worker expectations are changing and the idea that the worker simply has to comply with everything that the employer demands, those days have gone.
00:12:12:05 - 00:12:36:01
Julia Richardson
So now again, it's about a negotiation. And I certainly think that employers need to be open to the idea of change. But of course, in some instances, the employee cannot simply have everything that they want. They have to meet those performance targets. That's very, very important. And I think also to make sure there's a clear understanding of what the expectations are and what's really interesting.
00:12:36:01 - 00:13:00:11
Julia Richardson
I think you need to be really careful as an employee in some instances. We know this has happened when employees have requested to work from home. What is the perception of the employee? So somebody who wanted a four day work week, might they be perceived of not taking their work seriously? Are you as committed because you actually now only want to work four days rather than five days?
00:13:00:11 - 00:13:10:21
Julia Richardson
So it's about managing one's own professional image, one's brand image, and making sure that you're really on the ball, that you are meeting those performance expectations.
00:13:10:23 - 00:13:14:06
David Karsten
Read the room and really think through the optics.
00:13:14:08 - 00:13:40:06
Julia Richardson
Very much so. And there are other issues as well with regard to the four day work week. So for example, what are going what are the implications for one's career trajectory. How are you going to be viewed. When are you going to be within the office space. You know, if you're taking Fridays off for example, and all the really important decisions are made on Friday, maybe you need to reevaluate how you're organising your work.
00:13:40:08 - 00:13:51:16
David Karsten
Yeah. That's a very fair. That's a very fair statement to make. Yeah. But there could be some flexibility in there. Also does your four day a week have to include a Friday off.
00:13:51:18 - 00:13:52:10
Julia Richardson
Absolutely.
00:13:52:12 - 00:13:57:22
David Karsten
Me maybe as, as an employer you have to offer I offer up some flexibility in this arrangement as well. Right.
00:13:57:24 - 00:14:22:10
Julia Richardson
Oh absolutely. So for example, traditionally you might say, sure, I'm going to take Fridays off, but we know that many people, for example, would prefer to take the Monday off or other employees are preferring to take the Wednesday off. So it's about that flexibility. And the key question again is what is going to suit the employer and the work requirements, but also factor in what preferences do the employee have as well.
00:14:22:11 - 00:14:43:01
David Karsten
Well the employees will probably say well if I'm getting the work done, if it's simply a case of actually getting the work done, and we look back and review after 12 months and that's that is the case. Then it might be time to have a conversation about what productivity actually means, especially in this shorter workweek sort of context.
00:14:43:01 - 00:14:57:18
David Karsten
I mean, is it has our idea of productivity changed and, you know, is this an opportunity for us to reset work design and, and, and also take into consideration AI as a means of, of enabling a shorter working week?
00:14:57:18 - 00:15:24:15
Julia Richardson
Yeah, I think so. So there are two things. I'm going to come back to an earlier point. There are two things that we know with regard to work performance. Now, with technological development, we now it's much easier to monitor work and performance. So that's where technology comes in in terms of measuring performance outputs. And I think organisations have become much more astute at deciding what are the performance expectations here.
00:15:24:17 - 00:15:50:00
Julia Richardson
And importantly, how are we going to measure it? But from an employee's perspective, and we do know this with regard to much research about careers and career development, it's not just performance that will impact on our professional opportunities on promotions. Performance, of course, is very, very important. But it's not the only thing. It's the other things that we bring to work.
00:15:50:00 - 00:16:10:07
Julia Richardson
So for example, collegiality, support for colleagues, you know, buying into the mission of the organisation. So I think it's incumbent upon employees, particularly if they have particularly high career goals, if they're very ambitious, that performance is simply one dimension of how we're evaluated.
00:16:10:09 - 00:16:20:07
David Karsten
That idea of evaluation and quantifying, it's I guess it's a little difficult to to apply that to collegiality, but it is it is tangible, isn't it?
00:16:20:08 - 00:16:49:12
Julia Richardson
It is tangible. And I think the other important thing is it's observable. So once colleagues, one's manager is actually observing how we interact in the workplace and the extent to which that makes us appointable or not appointed for a higher position or for a leadership or another managerial position. So I think the work experience and performance and productivity is way above sort of simply widgets and productivity.
00:16:49:14 - 00:16:54:10
Julia Richardson
Right? It's a much richer dynamic. I think it's important to navigate and be aware of.
00:16:54:12 - 00:17:04:15
David Karsten
Guess any framework of structure that involves people is in itself a community. As, as, you know, as different as that might be defined in those different contexts. But it is a community.
00:17:04:17 - 00:17:34:23
Julia Richardson
It is it's very much a common community. And what we do know from organisations in in research done for example, looking for what do employers want? Yes, employers do want those for want of a better word, technical skills and the capacity to use AI or technological advances or appliances or whatever. But we also know that is what is critical for employers is the extent to which somebody has very highly skilled interpersonal skills.
00:17:35:02 - 00:17:38:00
Julia Richardson
That is absolutely critical for any employer.
00:17:38:02 - 00:17:52:10
David Karsten
Yeah. When you think about it and devote a bit of reflection to it, you do realize that that one personality or each personality within an organisation affects the dynamic, of, of that organisation in, in their own way. Right?
00:17:52:11 - 00:18:16:06
Julia Richardson
Yeah, absolutely. And so if you have very, a very positive personality, for example, what we might call ‘positive affect ‘: you’re friendly, you’re collegial, you’re supportive, then if we reflect back on things like working from home or that four day a work week, you know, you're much more likely to be able to make it work and to work collegiately with your employer, with your clients, with your customers, as well as with your colleagues.
00:18:16:11 - 00:18:39:12
David Karsten
I know you've touched on it in a in a previous answer, but can we unpack the AI side of the equation a little more? As you've seen, AI or generative AI become more prevalent, have you been looking upon it as a bit of an opportunity, perhaps, to benefit organisations and employees in the context of, of a four-day working week?
00:18:39:17 - 00:18:59:20
Julia Richardson
Yeah, very much so. I know we know that, you know, there are conversations around how can we best use AI. And I think certainly it does provide us with some opportunities, perhaps to work more efficiently, to take away some of the, what one might call the drudge work, away from employees so they can focus on other activities.
00:18:59:20 - 00:19:21:18
Julia Richardson
So I think there's a balance here. I think we have to be cautious in saying that human beings aren't going to be needed ever again. And the, you know, we have to be careful to steer away from hyperbole here. So just as some activities can now be undertaken by AI, obviously now the workforce is changing. Customer and client expectations are changing.
00:19:21:18 - 00:19:36:16
Julia Richardson
Maybe they would prefer to talk to a human being rather than an AI device. So I think there are opportunities for other work activities that we can undertake. So I think we should go into using AI with some caution, but also with some realism.
00:19:36:18 - 00:19:54:10
David Karsten
Well, I guess the, the flip side there would be, you know, an employee concerned about job preservation. I mean, is, is a shorter working week, I guess, adding fuel to the fire that we're possibly doing ourselves out of a job, in conjunction with the the advent of AI?
00:19:54:12 - 00:20:18:22
Julia Richardson
Yeah, I think we have to be careful around that. Also, you know, the idea of making oneself indispensable. And that, I think, relates to what we would call skill transferability and this idea of having a little bit cliched, perhaps, but a growth mindset. So rather, rather than sitting with our arms folded, saying, bah humbug, this sort of AI, this technological development, it's all awful.
00:20:18:24 - 00:20:32:00
Julia Richardson
It's about how do we engage with technology, how do we engage with the challenges that we're facing so that we can make a contribution to the workplace, to our clients, to our employer, and at a larger scale, to society as well?
00:20:32:03 - 00:20:35:19
David Karsten
We might all do different jobs, Julia, but relevance applies to all of us.
00:20:35:21 - 00:20:53:09
Julia Richardson
Absolutely. And I think that's an important point, but it's about keeping ourselves relevant and informed and also just drawing on those support structures from our educators, from our employers, to see how I can continue to be relevant and to make a contribution.
00:20:53:11 - 00:21:05:05
David Karsten
Julia, at a at a policy level, the Federal Government is saying that it has no current plans to implement a four-day working week. But if a business wanted to trial this arrangement, what steps should they take?
00:21:05:07 - 00:21:30:01
Julia Richardson
Okay, so the first thing that I would advise that they would do, they'd look elsewhere and they look at some, for example, some best case examples about what have had their organisations done and specifically how have they implemented this opportunity. And again, it's moving away from that set and forget; don’t eave employees stranded simply saying to them, okay, off you go on your four-day work week.
00:21:30:05 - 00:21:50:01
Julia Richardson
It's up to you to figure it out. It's about how do we introduce it, perhaps, for example, introducing it at a staged level. It may be available initially, initially just to one group of employees trialing it there. If there are any challenges emerging, let's make some tweaks to it before we roll it out to the rest of the organisation.
00:21:50:02 - 00:22:17:00
Julia Richardson
So I think it's important to do it at an incremental level so that any learning opportunities, they come early, they can fail fast, make the adjustment, and then make it work before we roll it out to a large proportion of employees and also I think you have to have those ongoing support structures. If it's not working for a particular employee or a particular group of employees, don't just simply remove it from them and say, you know, it's not working for you.
00:22:17:00 - 00:22:50:24
Julia Richardson
You're back in five days a week. What was wrong? What went wrong here? How can we make those put those checks and balances in? What adjustments do we need to make precisely in order to make it work? So it's about an ongoing learning process so that you've got all stakeholders working together and doing some checks, perhaps after three months, after six months, after a year to see what's not working, rather than simply casting it aside and saying, this doesn't work for us, and it's been able to make that call early to decide which additional support structures are required.
00:22:51:01 - 00:23:18:04
David Karsten
The colleague I mentioned earlier has has was very quick to to, to let me know that, that her arrangement is yeah, it's a four day working week. But if the workload or if a crisis needs to be managed or if something comes up on her day off, she is still obligated to meet that. You know, it's, it's very much an understanding between her and her employer to pivot and meet the needs as required.
00:23:18:06 - 00:23:39:12
Julia Richardson
That's I think that's a really important point, because it's about setting the expectations that these are the performance requirements. This is what we expect you to achieve. So the four day a work week is going in parallel with that. But if something happens and you're not meeting those KPIs, then we need to have a conversation about any changes.
00:23:39:12 - 00:23:56:22
Julia Richardson
And it's it's exactly the same as when, for example, an employee starts to work from home a couple of days a week, or if they continue to work from home five days a week. Again, it's about identifying what are the key performance indicators. How much support do employees need in order to achieve them?
00:23:56:22 - 00:24:12:19
David Karsten
When an organisation is looking to to do that research and look at at other organisations, are you suggesting that perhaps, they look within their own country for other examples because of, you know, quite, country specific issues like employment law, that sort of thing?
00:24:12:19 - 00:24:36:07
Julia Richardson
Very much so, yeah. So what I would recommend that first of all, they look within country or perhaps perhaps within a region, see what's happened. Let's have a look to see what other organisations have done in organisations that are quite similar to our organisation. So of course we know it may be different across industries, across organisations. It depends very much, for example, on organisational cultures.
00:24:36:09 - 00:24:56:01
Julia Richardson
I think it helps us also if we start looking beyond our own shores to other countries and see what works and what have what hasn't worked, I think it's what what can we learn from how others have achieved this or what, what problems of they encountered, what checks and balances, and then looking at how can we adjust that to our own specific context?
00:24:56:03 - 00:25:15:24
Julia Richardson
And also there's national culture as well. There's things like, for example, family arrangements, how a house is structured. Are we in a culture where that where we have extended families living together? How might that impact on productivity if somebody is working from the home and so forth? So I think the important point here is, is that multi dimensional.
00:25:16:01 - 00:25:26:19
David Karsten
There's so many considerations there, Julia. But I guess the biggest question I've left to last. And are you prepared for this. How many days a week do you work to?
00:25:26:21 - 00:25:31:15
Julia Richardson
I work a good solid five days a week.
00:25:31:17 - 00:25:36:12
David Karsten
All has been revealed, ladies and gentlemen, but it's a role that requires that sort of intensity.
00:25:36:12 - 00:25:38:15
Julia Richardson
It does indeed. It does.
00:25:38:17 - 00:25:52:20
David Karsten
And we really appreciate the time that you've given us today to to expand some of your research and findings and many years of experience in this in this area. It's an exciting frontier and it's a time of great change. And we really appreciate your insights today. Thank you.
00:25:52:23 - 00:25:54:23
Julia Richardson
I'm most welcome. Thank you.
00:25:55:00 - 00:26:09:11
David Karsten
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