The Future Of

Freedom of Movement (LIVE!)

Episode Summary

Will COVID-19 lockdowns increase the public’s support for refugees and other individuals with restrictions to freedom of movement?

Episode Notes

Will COVID-19 lockdowns increase the public’s support for refugees and other individuals with restrictions to freedom of movement?

Episode Transcription

Jessica Morrison:            00:00 This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.

Amelia Searson:               00:08 Okay, hi everyone. I'm Amelia Searson.

Jessica Morrison:            00:11 And I'm Jessica Morrison. Welcome to The Future Of podcast. Today is our special live edition where we're recording from Curtin University's Open Day here at our Perth campus in Western Australia. Today, we'll be talking about the future of freedom of movement.

Jessica Morrison:            00:27 According to the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights, freedom of movement is an inherent human right. Simply put, the right guarantees that everyone has the freedom to move and reside within the borders of their country, and that everyone has the right to leave any country, including their own, and return to it.

Amelia Searson:               00:47 Historically, it was only persecuted groups who experienced restrictions to this, right. But as a result of COVID lockdowns, it's something that we've all lived with to some degree. Looking into the future, how will this impact the public's understanding and support towards people who face restrictions in far worse conditions, such as refugees in detention centres and our communities?

Jessica Morrison:            01:09 To discuss this topic with us today are the co-directors of Curtin University's Centre for Human Rights Education: Associate Professor Caroline Fleay and Dr. Lisa Hartley. Why is the right to freedom of movement so important?

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 01:24 You know, I think when we're asking that question, we've got to think about: what is 'movement'? What is the 'right to movement'? What does that actually mean? And I think it's important to think about ... movement by choice is often thought about as being a privilege. So, in Australia, for example, we might think of milestones, like getting a car licence and driving a car, going on your first international trip. These are all kind of indications of freedom, I guess.

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 01:51 But there are many people in the world who don't have those kinds of freedoms, even before COVID-19, so when we think of restrictions of movements, we might think about people who are in detention centres or people who are incarcerated in jails, and also the millions of people like you've alluded to in the introduction, people who are forced to migrate. For example, people who are escaping persecution, conflict, environmental degradation as well. So the freedom of movement is something that, as you said, is a right, but generally speaking is only really experienced by people who are in a privileged position, and certainly within our own communities as well there are many people who have restrictions on movement. For example, refugees and asylum seekers.

Amelia Searson:               02:34 Caroline, do you have anything to add to that?

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            02:35                   I think she's answered it incredibly well. No, but just to reiterate that last point, it's so important for all of us to look around in our communities, and consider if we have quite a lot of freedoms in what we can do, who are people who don't and why?

Amelia Searson:               02:51 And obviously for the past year we've been experiencing a COVID world. Do you think that lockdowns and border closures will improve the Australian public's understanding and I guess support towards those who have experienced those long-term restrictions with freedom of movement?

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 03:07 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to think about, because if we're thinking about in the context of the pandemic, we've seen that the wealthy and powerful are able to kind of cross borders, international borders, but yet we've had Australians internationally who have been unable to come home because of the caps on international flights. And within our own country we've had borders closed between states, which meant that people have been dislocated from families. Me personally, I've been in that situation, unable to see my family for nearly two years. And that's incredibly difficult, having that experience where you're not being able to access your family and being stuck, I guess. Yeah, so I mean, that, I think, is a good segue into trying to understand what it's actually like. It's a very minuscule kind of insight into what it's like for people who are unable to see their families for years on end, but it's something.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            04:02 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's a point well made, because COVID has given us the opportunity to experience, for many of us, something we haven't experienced before, which is great restrictions on how we move and who we can access. Can we get to see our family and friends in another state, in another country? And that's been very restricted and very painful for many of us. But what that gives us is some potential for some insight into how many people have been living in this situation for a very long time around the world.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            04:36 And in Australia, we've got more than 30,000 people who came here seeking asylum and have been subjected to very restricted policies for the entire time. For some more than 10 years, not being able to get their families here from overseas pre COVID, let alone now, and living with the absolute agony of knowing they don't know when they're going to get to see their families and bring them here. And this is Australian policy at this time.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            05:04 So I think what we have in COVID is the potential for us all to seek out and find out why some people may not be experiencing the freedoms that we have, even though they're restricted in COVID, the freedoms we experience. Particularly in WA, we've been incredibly fortunate here to be able to continue to move in many ways, at least within this state, compared to many other parts of the world and Australia.

Jessica Morrison:            05:30 Australia and some other countries recently banned or heavily restricted travel from India due to the drastic rise in COVID-19 cases there. Do you think that this response was appropriate or did it unfairly target or single out the Indian community?

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            05:46 That's a very important question, and I think just to start with: when we're in the midst of a pandemic, I think with any policy landscape, one of the important things is to find out who are the experts. Who are the experts who might be best positioned to guide government policy and how we should live our lives? And in this situation with the pandemic, it's clearly the epidemiologists. They are expert in knowing how to respond and they're the people we should be guided by, and they're the people that by and large, mostly, governments have been trying to be guided by, which is very welcome.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            06:19 And what they've been saying is that, of course, if we want to restrict the spread of COVID, then it's best for us not to move and not to encounter many other people. So there's good reasons, for example, for having borders that are closed, for some time perhaps.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            06:35 But what we also have to think about, is who are we responsible for? Who needs to come to Australia, who needs to come home, or who needs to be allowed to enter here because they're in such difficult and dangerous situations? So there's also responsibilities beyond just whether it's safe or not for mass people to move, and you can move people, in very carefully and very safely. So I think that's an important consideration.

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 07:04 And in regards to the question around India, I think it's important to think about, okay, so in what circumstances has the Australian government closed borders from COVID? And initially we had borders closed from people from China, from South Korea, Italy. So that's not a new phenomenon that that happened. But the difference with the recent example in India was that this was restricting people who are citizens in Australia, in India, from actually coming home. The risk of facing jail time and fines. And that's an extraordinary thing for the government to do, and I think it's very problematic in that way, because it begs the question of why, in this particular example, are those kind of penalties extended to Indian Australians, and not in other cases.

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 07:52 You couldn't imagine that kind of response, for example, for people who, if the same kind of situation unfolded in the UK, for example. So I think the question of was it inappropriate and were there kind of racial undertones to that? I think there's reasons to suggest that it's problematic what the government called. Yeah.

Amelia Searson:               08:12 And Caroline, I'd like to start with you for this next question. So, last year calls were made by health professionals, academics, experts like yourself to release people from Australia's detention centres during the height of the pandemic, because it wasn't going to be safe. However, these calls weren't listened to by the Australian government. So if an extremely deadly global virus can't make them listen, what really is the future of Australia's asylum seekers, who seem to be in perpetual lockdown?

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            08:43 That's an excellent question, and it is a huge area to answer, and I will try and be brief. If anyone listening would like to explore this further, come and do the Master of Human Rights, because we talk about these issues in great detail, because they're complex. But yes, we have a situation in Australia, which someone comes to this country without a valid visa, they are able to be detained. They're able to be locked up on an indefinite basis, and it's up to the Minister for Immigration to exercise their discretion when people can be released, in many respects. We have that situation and it's really targeted at people who come seeking asylum, who come by boat. So it's targeting particular people.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            09:28 So we have people who have been locked up in sites of detention in Australia and offshore on Nauru and Manus Island, who were detained there and now, are not able to leave those countries to be resettled because of this law, and we've had variants of this law for 30 years, which is a long time. And the impact of that is inhumane and it's incredibly damaging, and also people have died in those offshore sites of detention as well.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            09:56 So you're asking what will shift this, and that is a very big question. And I think, as I said before, during the pandemic, we have a moment to think about how is it that some of us can be treated so differently to other people? And we have a moment I think, to explore and to find out why it is that some people are treated ... and most importantly, to listen to people who are living through this experience.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            10:21 So, as I said before, some 30,000 people, more than 30,000 people, have experienced times in detention in Australia because they came to seek asylum. Those who are released are only given temporary visas, which means they cannot get their families to safely join them. Many people come on their own because it's such a dangerous journey, and hoping when they get here to bring their families here safely.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            10:43 Now is the time for us to seek that information out because it's there. There's a wonderful series on the Guardian website called Temporary, which allows people to tell their own stories about why people came here and the impacts of these policies. And there are many groups too, including us, who are calling for their release. So what will it take? It will take a lot more of us to talk directly to politicians about our concerns and to take it directly to them, and we also need to work together to do that.

Jessica Morrison:            11:14                   I suppose that lends itself really nicely to my next question around what do you think we've learned, particularly from this pandemic, and as we've talked about, the restriction on the movement for the broader public, obviously not in conditions that our asylum seekers are experiencing. But what do you think we've learned from the pandemic's impact on freedom of movement, and how can it be applied to generate positive change?

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            11:39 Yeah. As I mentioned before, look, there are people who are speaking out about this. There's quite a few researchers and academics like ourselves, who have worked with people who are living this experience, to elevate their experiences, and to enable their voices to be heard. There are sites in the media where you can hear that. There are other sites where you can't, but this information is out there. What we're seeing through this pandemic is increasing calls. So we're seeing things like the Human Rights Law Centre produced a fabulous report, talking about how horrendous it is to be separated from your family and what needs to happen in very specific ways, how policy can be changed. So that report's a great start. There are a range of organisations around Australia, human rights, refugee support agencies, refugee communities, who are calling for change, who are mobilising.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            12:28 And I think one of the key things we have to do is engage directly with politicians, because often they don't even know their own policies. We need to take it directly to politicians. And there are many people who've come here seeking asylum, who want that opportunity to do that, and that is starting to happen, and that is really important. And there are groups out there to link up with. In Perth, the Centre for Asylum Seekers, Refugees and Detainees is one, and our Centre for Human Rights Education is another. So there's things that can be done and we can build on that momentum to bring about some change.

Amelia Searson:               13:02 Lisa, anything to add on that?

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 13:03 Yeah. I'm thinking also in terms of very individual types of actions we can take. I know there's a lot of discussion around do posts on social media make any impact? And I think in some ways they do, because, for example, my own example of where I was unable to see my family for nearly two years, and that was just within Australia, using that as a kind of a stepping stone to share with others. This is just a tiny example of what it's like for millions of people around the world who, even before COVID, who have been unable to see their families for years on end. For years on end. So even just sharing posts like that, I think, is really effective way of just letting other people know that their experiences are valid, but also that there are people that are experiencing much more indefinite separation from family and from ability to move. Yeah, that's quite a powerful way of doing things as well. Yeah.

Amelia Searson:               14:02 And what inspired both of you, or motivated both of you to pursue this area of research in human rights?

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            14:09                   I guess for both of us, we were very connected with people who, I mean this is going back 20 years for me, who were visiting detention centres and who were very concerned, and were involved with Amnesty International at the time, very concerned about how people were treated, looking out there and thinking: "Why are some people treated in this way and not others?" I have to say one of the really important motivating factors too, and what we've learned through our work at the Centre for Human Rights Education – [I'm] speaking for you now, Lisa, sorry, hopefully speaking for both of us – is how much we've learned about other people's experiences, looking at people from a whole cross section of life.

Associate Professor Caroline Fleay:            14:47 But most importantly too, and I think this needs to be connected, recognising the history of Australia. Recognising the colonised history of Australia. Just this morning – I'm sorry, just last week – the Uluru Statement from the Heart, which is a very clear statement about how we could be guided moving forward with Australia's First Nations peoples, talking about the need to recognise that and to recognise whose bodies are being treated in ways ... restricted in ways that are more likely to be locked up and so on, and make the connections there with people who are coming more recently. So I think that's a really important message. And I just wanted to give that nod to the Uluru Statement From the Heart, because it won the Sydney Peace Prize and it deserved to do so. And that should be the future of Australia, enshrining that.

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 15:38 Yeah. I mean, Caroline did speak for me in many ways. And I think back to how I ended up getting involved in the research and advocacy that we do now. When I was 18 back in Sydney, I visited Villawood [Immigration] Detention Centre just through a friend. And at that time there were people being locked up – there still are – but being locked up for years on end. And as an 18 year old, I just couldn't believe that we as a country were locking up people who had committed no crime. They had not been sentenced with anything and with no kind of end date for their release. And I remember walking away that first time, when I went into the detention centre, and walking away thinking: "I have the right, again, to freely move. I can leave this detention centre and I can do what I want. I live in a safe country. I'm not being persecuted."

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 16:30 But yet we have people in our own country who are trying to seek protection, who are locked up and it was just ... I couldn't look away. And I'm now very grateful that I'm able to work at the centre now, to continue with that work. But I think it's a profound thing to look at somebody in the eye, who is locked in a detention centre, who has no idea how, when they're going to be released, and even why they are there.

Jessica Morrison:            16:53 Thank you both for sharing that, the very touching stories as to what's led you into this path and doing some good too. So thank you very much. And thank you for coming in today. So today we've covered what the freedom of movement is, why it's important and particularly how it applies in a COVID world and how the broader public has come to have a little bit more of an understanding about what that might be like for people in far worse conditions.

Amelia Searson:               17:16 So this has been a special live edition of The Future Of, a podcast powered by Curtin University. If you've liked what you've heard, please subscribe to us on your favourite podcast app. See you next time.

Dr Lisa Hartley:                 17:27 Thanks for that guys.

Live audience:                  17:27 [Clapping and cheering.]