Is plastic pollution a design flaw we can actually fix?
Is plastic pollution a design flaw we can actually fix?
In this episode, David Karsten and Celeste Fourie are joined by Dr Atiq Zaman, Associate Professor at Curtin University and UN advisor, to discuss why recycling alone won't solve the plastic crisis – and what a genuinely circular system could look like.
Dr Atiq Zaman
Associate Professor at the Curtin University Sustainability Policy Institute (CUSP)
Dr Atiq Zaman was ranked first globally under ‘zero waste’ by the ScholarGPS database in 2025 and recognised as one of the world's ‘Top 2% Scientists’ by Stanford/Elsevier in 2024. He advises the UN Secretary-General's Council of Engineers for the Energy Transition, has contributed to COP27, COP28, and COP29, and is the Founding Co-Director of the Global South Nexus at Curtin University.
His research focuses on developing zero-waste strategies and circular economy tools across sustainable development – from packaging and plastics to cities and the built environment.
This podcast is brought to you by Curtin University. Curtin is a global university known for its commitment to making positive change happen through high-impact research, strong industry partnerships and practical teaching.
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Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au
Host: David Karsten and Celeste Fourie
Content creator: Caitlin Crowley
Producer: Emilia Jolakoska
Executive Producers: Anita Shore and Natasha Weeks
Curtin University acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the First Peoples of this place we call Australia, and the First Nations peoples connected with our global campuses. We are committed to working in partnership with Custodians and Owners to strengthen and embed First Nations’ voices and perspectives in our decision-making, now and into the future.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:09:21
David Karsten
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better. I'm David Karsten.
00:00:09:23 - 00:00:41:23
Celeste Fourie
And I'm Celeste Fourie. By 2050, the amount of plastic consumed in Australia will more than double. And despite decades of awareness campaigns, recycling bins and greener alternatives, only about 15% of plastic waste generated over the last 20 years has been recovered through recycling, composting or energy recovery. Our guest today has spent his career following waste, from auditing environmental compliance for factories in Bangladesh to inspecting supply chains for H&M.
00:00:42:00 - 00:01:05:08
David Karsten
Doctor Atiq Zaman is an associate professor at Curtin University, ranked number one globally in zero-waste research and an advisor to the UN Secretary-General on the energy transition. In this episode, we ask whether plastic pollution is a crisis we can actually design our way out of. If you'd like to find out more about this research, you can visit the links provided in the show notes.
00:01:05:10 - 00:01:20:05
Celeste Fourie
Your research suggests the plastic problem is much more structural than individual behaviour. How bad is the plastic crisis, and is it really about individual choices, or is it about something bigger?
00:01:20:07 - 00:01:45:18
Atiq Zaman
Very interesting way to start - like, is it a structural problem or something else, like the behavioural choice? As you mention, we are passing through a waste crisis, a global waste crisis. And plastic is a bigger part of that global waste crisis. And surely it is part of our individual choice. But more than that, it is a structural challenge that we have seen over the past.
00:01:45:21 - 00:02:07:15
David Karsten
Some of those stats are frightening. The Australian Institute says that only 14% of plastic waste is kept out of landfill. And in real terms, there's actually very little demand for recycled plastics by industry. That seems really dire. What is the state of affairs at the moment, as you see it?
00:02:07:17 - 00:02:23:09
Atiq Zaman
What we are talking about is really end-of-life plastic, like when you talk about recycled plastic and recycled content in the product. And actually, that, as you mentioned, is like 14% that you are currently actually recycling in Australia.
00:02:23:10 - 00:02:34:21
David Karsten
Is that good or is it not? Is it an - well, it's an improvement. But is the improvement happening too slowly? I mean, is there a way of looking at it positively, or are we not picking up what we need to pick up?
00:02:34:22 - 00:02:58:03
Atiq Zaman
If we look into it, if you see that, compared to 2018 to now, I would say it's a good positive shift happening. If you talk about how fast we are doing - we are not really doing - the way it should be. Why I'm referring to 2018, because this is the time not only Australia, but around the world, other developed countries also realised that we are very good waste collectors.
00:02:58:03 - 00:03:23:13
Atiq Zaman
Not really waste recyclers. For example, in 2018, China put a global plastic waste ban, meaning that China will not take care of other countries' waste. So that policy of China actually triggered Australia, Canada, USA and many European countries as well to say, "oh actually, we need to deal with our own plastic that we produce." So this is where the infrastructure started.
00:03:23:15 - 00:03:49:01
Atiq Zaman
Infrastructure is needed - like not only how we collect from our kerbside waste, but also how we use those, how we recycle those in-house, like we do in Australia. So at that time, most of our plastic we actually sent to China or other countries. Now we are recycling within the country - 14%. I think that's good progress. But 14% is very low, very low compared to what it should be.
00:03:49:03 - 00:04:00:07
David Karsten
In terms of infrastructure, what has come online and come on stream since 2018? We're eight years down the track. What examples can you give us of some major infrastructure that's been established?
00:04:00:09 - 00:04:29:11
Atiq Zaman
Okay. That's a really interesting one because in this space, I can see that there are a lot of good infrastructures that have been established or introduced. For example, various kinds of modern recycling facilities - like what we call a Smart MRF, a Materials Recovery Facility. The number of MRFs has actually increased in Australia. But at the same time, we have also seen that one of the biggest - I would say, or most successful - programs we ran in Australia is the REDcycle program.
00:04:29:16 - 00:04:55:22
Atiq Zaman
Unfortunately that failed. I think that was also, I would say, the backbone of addressing the soft plastic problem, and that failed. So we really need that sort of program more. And also, how to deal with the plastic that we are collecting. So it's not only collecting plastic or soft plastic that REDcycle had done before, but actually making that plastic into a usable product.
00:04:56:02 - 00:05:11:11
Atiq Zaman
And this is the missing piece in Australia - we don't have an appropriate market for the recycled product, because someone needs to buy it. But we have explored avenues to make that happen. But this is happening very slowly.
00:05:11:13 - 00:05:33:22
Celeste Fourie
A consumer behaviour change that's really, I guess, changed for me personally was the plastic bag ban and also the use of plastic straws. Those are the things that I have seen recently change over time. And when you go to the shops now there's no plastic bags - it's all paper bags. And I guess straws are the same; they're all paper straws now.
00:05:33:24 - 00:05:44:04
Celeste Fourie
So I guess there has been this explosion of these green alternatives and these plant-based materials. Why have these solutions fallen short?
00:05:44:06 - 00:06:08:04
Atiq Zaman
That particular scenario that we have seen - the influx of green solutions - I think that was more of a reaction, particularly after the 2018 scenario where actually there were no solutions for our plastic and plastic waste, particularly the low-value kind, like mixed plastic or the plastic that doesn't have any value in it.
00:06:08:10 - 00:06:50:07
Atiq Zaman
For example, PET bottles still have a global market, so there's no problem with PET bottle and that sort of plastic. Only the soft plastic or the problematic plastic - that we call, you know, the squeezey pack, for example - there's no solution unfortunately yet. So for that plastic there's no solution yet in Australia. So when that scenario happened - that we need to actually take care of our plastic problem since 2018 - there's a quick response from the Australian government as well, because the Australian government also put forward, as mentioned, plastic bag bans, and also APCO - the Australian Packaging Covenant Organisation - put various targets, like all our packaging needs to be either 100% recyclable, compostable or reusable.
00:06:50:12 - 00:07:11:02
Atiq Zaman
That also triggered a lot of new inventions or new types of solutions. And to respond to that, the market provided, oh, we have these clean solutions - one after another. Then the problem was it's not only the solution or green solution that we need - that needs to be future-proof, and it needs to be fit for purpose for the local infrastructure that we have.
00:07:11:04 - 00:07:38:07
Atiq Zaman
For example, if it is biodegradable plastic - biodegradable means it is degrading over time, but it is not degrading fast enough to cope with our composting. For example, if I do backyard composting, does a biodegradable bag or solution need to degrade within the timeframe of the composting that I'm doing at the backyard level? Or if I'm doing composting at a commercial level, even that doesn't meet the timeframe that it needs to be degraded in.
00:07:38:13 - 00:08:10:15
Atiq Zaman
So that sort of challenge - we have seen a lot of those green solutions come as a solution that unfortunately turned out to be a problem for the local infrastructure that we have. So we need to actually take into consideration not only the national standard or requirement, but what we are doing at grassroots level, particularly at council level - what sort of infrastructure we have, what sort of behaviour people would do. Say if they are doing home composting or, you know, community garden composting and so on.
00:08:10:21 - 00:08:15:10
Atiq Zaman
Does this solution cope with those situations of infrastructure that you have?
00:08:15:12 - 00:08:33:23
Celeste Fourie
It really looks like it is a bit more of a design problem, this plastic pollution. And this does bring us to your own research, specifically the concepts of zero-trace plastic and non-pollutant plastic. Can you walk us through what these terms mean and why they matter?
00:08:34:00 - 00:08:57:13
Atiq Zaman
In non-pollutant plastic, we kind of have a more structured way of how to address - or how to assess - whether the plastic is a non-pollutant one. So it doesn't have any toxicity at end of its life. And zero-trace plastic is about a plastic-free product. So it could be used in packaging. It could be used as a bag.
00:08:57:15 - 00:09:29:08
Atiq Zaman
It doesn't matter. But there's no trace of plastic. That sort of definition, that sort of notion, is important to understand and also to separate what is plastic and what is not, what is toxic and what is not. When we actually introduced non-pollutant plastic and zero-trace plastic - last year, actually, our spark was the global plastic treaty negotiations. At that point in time I was in Geneva, I was hosted by UNCTAD - the UN Conference on Trade and Development - to collaborate with them.
00:09:29:10 - 00:10:02:15
Atiq Zaman
So, along with my peer, this student Benjamin Gazeau - he is a polymer scientist - and we also closely worked with scientists in Bangladesh who actually invented a biopolymer. We are not talking about bioplastic; it is a biopolymer, a stimulus-based polymer. And that can actually address some of those challenges. And what we have observed, particularly during the global plastic treaty, is our negotiations were stuck with the very basic fundamental definitions.
00:10:02:17 - 00:10:36:02
Atiq Zaman
What does bioplastic mean? What does biodegradable plastic mean? How do we address chemical concern? And so on. So there's an interesting scenario - or session - that I attended, and I would like to share with you. It was one of the previous sessions of the global plastic treaty when various stakeholders actually attended - like people from different ministries of different countries, civil society, scientists, different lobby groups interestingly, and so on.
00:10:36:04 - 00:11:06:16
Atiq Zaman
And the discussion was - or the lobbyist group was presenting - that when we produce polymer or monomer, that's the basic ingredient to make plastic from fossil fuel, and that's really not hazardous. So why is this treaty putting a cap? Because that's the goal of a global plastic treaty - to have a harmonised system to control plastic pollution. And the lobbyist groups and the countries with particularly the fossil fuel interest, they are not happy about that.
00:11:06:18 - 00:11:29:14
Atiq Zaman
And the actual intention is to increase plastic production over time in the world. So the main argument is that plastic - polymer or monomer in its initial stage - is not a problematic one, it's not hazardous. There should not be any concern that the community, that our world, should need to address. And actually, it sounds like nobody was actually addressing that.
00:11:29:14 - 00:11:52:06
Atiq Zaman
So I took the floor. Because I'm in academia, I see both sides of the story and this is how we actually criticise or actually understand better. And then I still shared my view that, yes, you're right - if you are talking about monomer level, yes, it is not hazardous. But what happens in the supply chain? Because you are not using just one monomer, or you are not even using just the polymer.
00:11:52:08 - 00:12:15:01
Atiq Zaman
In that sense, we need to use some form of functionality, because every plastic packaging provides some function or service. And during that supply chain, when you use different types of additives - because of the different types of packaging that we need for shapes or protectiveness - those additives actually create that problem, the hazard or the pollution that we are talking about.
00:12:15:03 - 00:12:42:02
Atiq Zaman
Are you controlling that chemical concern? No. End of the day, the final product or packaging is toxic - it is still really a challenging one. Our term zero-trace plastic or non-pollutant plastics actually addresses that kind of problem. We are saying - so with the challenge that, oh, it is not problematic - then can you certify that your product is non-pollutant or non-toxic?
00:12:42:04 - 00:13:03:09
Atiq Zaman
So the two terms that we provided at that time - unfortunately it was a very instant situation, so it's not like they could take up that term then and there. But even after that I can see that the World Health Organisation has actually reached out to us and they would like to understand more about this protocol and how to test that.
00:13:03:11 - 00:13:23:04
David Karsten
So standardising the language and the understanding is what needs to happen at a foundational level before you can go further than that. That's what you're showing here. I mean, when we're interchanging terms like bio-based synthetic polymers with natural biopolymers, then that's a cause of real confusion in the marketplace, isn't it? They are two different things.
00:13:23:04 - 00:13:25:08
David Karsten
Can you explain the difference between those two?
00:13:25:12 - 00:13:49:02
Atiq Zaman
Yes. So synthetic is like when the source comes from fossil fuel - some form of chemical process from a fossil-based solution - and that is what we call the synthetic polymer. And then the other polymer is coming from only a natural source, for example a plant. And that is more a natural polymer. Both have credible characteristics.
00:13:49:02 - 00:13:50:22
David Karsten
Just different - vastly different - right?
00:13:50:22 - 00:14:18:00
Atiq Zaman
Yes. So it doesn't really mean degradable plastic is safe. No. Because if it is coming from a synthetic source - meaning that we can expect that the plastic content in that material, if a biodegradable plastic has plastic and also chemical content like the chemicals that we should be avoiding - if they are degrading fast, that means we are actually being exposed to those chemicals more quickly.
00:14:18:06 - 00:14:29:22
Atiq Zaman
So degradable doesn't really solve the problem - it actually intensifies our problem more. But in the natural one, there's no content of that chemical of concern, as described.
00:14:29:22 - 00:14:40:17
David Karsten
Our plastic system is currently linear. We take, we make, we dispose. Who is bearing the cost of that system? And what does that tell us about the circular economy that we need to build?
00:14:40:23 - 00:15:00:21
Atiq Zaman
We often see that - oh, maybe we don't bear the cost, or who is actually bearing the cost. Is it companies who are actually producing this problematic one? Unfortunately not. It is end of the day us - like the common people, the community - who are actually paying most of the cost. But because of the externality we don't see it directly.
00:15:00:21 - 00:15:25:00
Atiq Zaman
Actually, we are paying for the problem that other people are making. So it's not like the community - we first talked about, like, is it a structural problem or is it the choices kind of scenario? Yes, we can as a consumer select certain items that might address some of the problem. The problem is we don't have many choices.
00:15:25:02 - 00:15:49:21
Atiq Zaman
We don't have those choices. So meaning that whoever is making as a manufacturer - they are giving us a certain type of product, and that product has consequences. So from a cost point of view, we are all actually bearing that cost. And particularly in the Global South part of the world, this is where the people are exposed to that really heavy cost.
00:15:49:23 - 00:16:05:02
Celeste Fourie
You've spent significant time working across the Global South, including through the Global South Nexus at Curtin. What are communities in the Global South doing with plastic that we should be paying attention to?
00:16:05:04 - 00:16:36:10
Atiq Zaman
This is really interesting because I am originally from a Global South country - I'm from Bangladesh - so I have actually been exposed to situations like when the authority, or city authority, or government authority failed to provide the very basic services or very basic infrastructure that should be provided for the community. And what happened in that situation - actually, community found their own sorts of solutions.
00:16:36:12 - 00:16:58:03
Atiq Zaman
So you will see that in Global South countries, in most of the developing countries, their own way to address some of the challenges is - of course, there is a lack of infrastructure there. You will see there's no proper waste collection or plastic sorting facilities there, but community has found their own way to address some of those challenges.
00:16:58:03 - 00:17:28:10
Atiq Zaman
And one of those is the informal system. So it's not really a formal system that government is providing. For example, our plastic or other types of waste is collected from outside our homes. We have drop-off points. We have at least basic infrastructure in Australia. In Global South countries, mostly it is done informally through the community, and then actually government or authorities step in to address the bigger problems, for example landfilling and so on.
00:17:28:12 - 00:17:57:22
Atiq Zaman
So what's happening in the Global South - and I think recently I was involved in one of the UN programs in Bangladesh to understand what is happening in the plastic area in Bangladesh. So we looked into the plastic sorting system in Bangladesh and it is done mostly - I would say mostly - by the informal sector. Informal collectors are actually collecting the soft plastic, including soft plastic and also all types of plastic from landfill sites and from kerbside littering.
00:17:57:22 - 00:18:41:23
Atiq Zaman
Because people are actually throwing - there's no basic bin or designated area. So even in that sort of situation, there's a huge number - a huge volume - of plastic actually collected, and also washed and sorted, by those informal people, because the labour is very cheap in terms of the labour cost, and also people's livelihoods depend on whatever they get from sorting that plastic. And our study indicates in the Bangladesh case - that we have seen through this recent project - and even DPHE in Bangladesh, in the case study area that we have seen, the recycling rate is 20 to 25%, done by the informal sector.
00:18:42:00 - 00:19:13:15
Atiq Zaman
Now, to compare with that - in Australia, despite our advanced recycling facilities and most of the people being educated, and having facilities like different bins to recycle - our recycling rate is a lot lower than what is happening in Bangladesh. Yeah. So there are a lot of really interesting things to learn from the Global South. And also, particularly, I think you also mentioned - okay, we don't have any demand, for example, for the recycled one.
00:19:13:17 - 00:19:39:13
Atiq Zaman
And that's really fascinating in Global South countries because, for example, they're facing various challenges - for example, they don't have roads. They don't have infrastructure like the nice roads that we have and enjoy in Australia. We have very fast roads, long roads, wide roads and so on. So what they are doing - actually, they are making pavements with plastic and those building materials. They actually have nice pavements made using that plastic.
00:19:39:15 - 00:19:55:12
Atiq Zaman
Yeah. They're recycling. Yes, well and truly, and they're actually creating that demand in the local community. So what is missing - what we can learn from the Global South in that context - is how we can create a market for recycled product.
00:19:55:14 - 00:20:05:11
David Karsten
Atiq, you've really carved out an outstanding academic career in this area. Was this largely motivated by your childhood, lived experience?
00:20:05:13 - 00:20:28:02
Atiq Zaman
Yes. Actually, that's good to talk about that. Yes. As I said, coming from the Global South and a developing country, we have seen the scarcity of material or resources - it's not really abundant the way we enjoy life here in Australia. For example, at the same time, there's a cultural practice as well, like a value.
00:20:28:02 - 00:20:51:13
Atiq Zaman
It could be family values or it could be more cultural values attached to it. So because of that scarcity of material, in our family - and I think it would be the same in various other parts of Bangladesh and also in similar socioeconomic contexts - it's like you'd be using the same product a lot longer.
00:20:51:15 - 00:21:23:11
Atiq Zaman
We could be called more a frugal society - like when you actually use again and again, and actually maximise material efficiency and usability. So that was always in my mind. And now, actually, when I was doing my PhD, it was about zero waste and the circular economy. Even our friends from Sweden, and also other parts of the world, said, I think - what, are you actually ruining your life?
00:21:23:13 - 00:21:48:01
Atiq Zaman
Researching on zero waste. You cannot prove zero - like, mathematically kind of proof - because, you know, thermodynamics doesn't - it is not possible. And then I said, no, no, it's not about actually proving mathematically zero as in zero waste, but rather it is a vision. It is a kind of motivation for the society - where should our final destination be?
00:21:48:03 - 00:22:17:10
Atiq Zaman
And I can see that - after actually ten years - 2015, when I finished my PhD, and now 2025, 2026 - we got last year, actually not last year, 2024 actually - you know, the UN has been there. Yeah. Zero waste resolutions. So we have now a zero waste day. There's a zero waste kind of notion everywhere and something like that is happening in this space.
00:22:17:10 - 00:22:42:18
Atiq Zaman
And that is also intertwined with circular economy. And this is - we all talk about circular economy nowadays. It's a more popular form of terminology, but both share the same sort of principle. It basically starts with the design rather than talking about end-of-life management. So even in our discussion, we talk about recycling, but in terms of zero waste or circular economy, recycling is the last rung of the ladder.
00:22:42:18 - 00:23:12:00
Atiq Zaman
So what does that mean? Like in the circular economy space, we use different steps to achieve the desired goal. So the main prime goal should be actually to avoid creating waste in the first place - through design, through thinking, through systems. And actually recycling is the bottom tier of that ladder. Yeah. So that's - that's fascinating that you talk about, like, you know, where this fascination comes from.
00:23:12:00 - 00:23:28:03
Atiq Zaman
Yes, from childhood. Yes. Through my research that I have done, and actually heavily criticised. But at least I can see that all the challenges that I faced, the criticism that I faced, have become a usual kind of topic now.
00:23:28:05 - 00:23:43:24
Celeste Fourie
When we look at plastic policy and regulation that is actually implemented in Australia at the moment versus what your research says is possible, what isn't exactly lining up, and what needs to change?
00:23:44:01 - 00:24:10:06
Atiq Zaman
If we listen to the holistic problem, first of all, we really need to address this - it is a really bigger systemic problem. We cannot solve this problem just by proposing policy that would address, for example, end-of-life management. As we mentioned, with behavioural change or in the consumer choice, we need to provide that choice first.
00:24:10:08 - 00:24:57:09
Atiq Zaman
And that requires systemic changes. Are we really addressing systemic challenges? For example, in Australia, if I look into various state governments - yes, we have a fantastic national waste policy. Even I can criticise that, because it's really not an ambitious policy. So we need to start with that systemic challenge and create those transformations. And that transformation requires bringing on board all the manufacturers who are part of that - like retailing organisations, all the regulatory bodies - and also then consumers, all stakeholders, all relevant stakeholders, coming on board and saying, okay, how can we actually achieve the systemic kind of transformation that is needed?
00:24:57:11 - 00:25:23:01
Atiq Zaman
And then we start with infrastructure, behavioural change. So all of this - that synchronisation, that harmonisation - I see there's a lack or gap in there. But at the same time I can also point out that a lot of things are happening, even from a manufacturer point of view. Nestlé, for example, or IKEA - they have fantastic solutions, actually.
00:25:23:01 - 00:25:41:05
Atiq Zaman
They come up and they say, oh, that would address the packaging problem - for example, plastic packaging problem. So they approach it from the design point of view. And I think you will see that if you look into IKEA, most of the packaging is now more cellulose-based or paper-based, where before it was like plastic or other types of material.
00:25:41:07 - 00:26:01:16
Atiq Zaman
Nestlé has started to move to more metal-based packaging, for example ice cream boxes and so on, because they can see that, okay, plastic has a problem, but not with the metal one - for example, the aluminium one. So some of those packaging changes, some of that rethinking, is very, very important at least at the manufacturer level. And so positive things are happening.
00:26:01:16 - 00:26:07:17
Atiq Zaman
Not really aligned, I would say, if you look into the national, global and also local context.
00:26:07:19 - 00:26:13:24
David Karsten
And one thing we can all agree on is that there is never a problem with the ice cream - in the packaging, right?
00:26:14:03 - 00:26:15:04
Atiq Zaman
No, of course not.
00:26:15:04 - 00:26:38:04
David Karsten
Because now - and you've touched on this earlier, Atiq - we think of waste as an inevitable part of life. But you are looking at it as perhaps a design flaw from the very beginning. Now, if that design flaw was fixed, and plastic packaging is designed in such a way that it will leave nothing behind, what does 2040 look like?
00:26:38:06 - 00:26:42:18
David Karsten
And what has to be true for that to happen between now and then?
00:26:42:20 - 00:27:06:24
Atiq Zaman
People are smart. We are not really dumb. So waste is inevitable when the system is not there. And this is the missing part, actually - why we are generating waste. We will create waste when - the main purpose of the circular economy movement, the zero waste solution, is actually how to make - find a purpose for the waste. It actually becomes a product instead of waste.
00:27:06:24 - 00:27:28:07
Atiq Zaman
Yeah. So I would not agree that waste is inevitable. But how can we bring that efficiency within our system? And so in 2040, what I really would like to see, and what needs to be changed, is how we can actually make this harmonisation, or global standard. I think we need that.
00:27:28:09 - 00:28:03:23
Atiq Zaman
And the global plastic waste treaty was part of that - is like, can we actually find a globally agreed platform where, okay, it is a problem, we need to cap that problem. We need to firstly say, don't utilise as much as possible. And that's unfortunately the trend that might be coming because of the fossil fuel energy transition. And those lobbyist countries that have a lot of fossil fuel but don't have the demand - because the demand for, like, putting petrol in the car is reducing because of electric vehicles.
00:28:04:00 - 00:28:26:15
Atiq Zaman
So the intention is actually to use the mixed-based sector, which is plastic. So that will increase a lot more in the plastics sector - not actually in the transport sector. To me it's like, okay, if that is inevitable because that is part of economic development - you cannot, we cannot deny that we need economic development.
00:28:26:21 - 00:28:48:18
Atiq Zaman
So then what can we address? Even for that, I would say - can you then address or identify areas where actually the plastic sector should go, or at least can grow? I would not say it should grow there, but it cannot - it could - grow. In that case it would be, for example, the built environment, like our building sector. The building sector requires a lot of pipes, a lot of conduit.
00:28:48:18 - 00:29:24:11
Atiq Zaman
All of this can come from plastic. Why? Because that can take like 20 or 30 years of usable life of that material. That would be a lot more logical and sensible solution to grow. Similarly with the car industries - transporting - there's a lot of plastic used in the industry, so it can last longer. So that sort of particular sector can maybe introduce more plastic-related products rather than soft plastic or packaging, because these are really short-life plastics - like not even seconds. If we just buy an ice cream wrapped in a nice plastic one -
00:29:24:15 - 00:29:46:11
Atiq Zaman
And we enjoyed that ice cream for two minutes, and there's a problem that we need to address. Yeah. So we need to identify that sector. So I would say harmonisation, international standards, and then actually identify the areas where maybe the plastics - among all those plastics - might grow in the future. But at the same time identify the problem which has already been identified.
00:29:46:13 - 00:30:10:22
Atiq Zaman
And in the discussion - for example, in the global plastic treaty - the chemicals of concern: how to actually address the chemicals of concern, how to reduce the overall volume of packaging plastic, and then so that we can actually address those plastics rather than creating a problem then addressing those problems. Yeah. So that sort of transformation I would love to see by 2040.
00:30:10:24 - 00:30:26:04
Celeste Fourie
Atiq, you are one of the world's leading researchers on the subject of plastic, and aren't we lucky to have you here at Curtin? I do have one last question for you. Are you optimistic about the future?
00:30:26:06 - 00:30:28:06
Atiq Zaman
Cautiously optimistic.
00:30:28:08 - 00:30:31:23
David Karsten
Good answer. That was a long pause. I was very concerned for a moment.
00:30:32:02 - 00:31:15:23
Atiq Zaman
Personally, I'm an optimistic person. So, honestly, I see the world more positively. And positive is because there's nowhere you can see that there's nothing happening. There are so many things happening. Yeah. Despite all of the challenges, there are so many innovations happening. Definitely I would say positive. But why I'm saying cautiously optimistic is - if you look into the global scenario, what is happening at least at the global level and at the more decision-making level, policy level - this is where the cautiously optimistic comes from, because we have so much uncertainty, so many events happen that should not happen.
00:31:16:00 - 00:31:42:00
Atiq Zaman
So that sort of lack of global leadership can actually make things more challenging - not only the plastic issue. Yes, it is a bigger challenge like climate change, decarbonisation. So all of these are really pressing issues. We need to - there's no point debating this thing. These are happening. You can see millions of people actually affected by floods, and plastic is even - I would say it is not less important.
00:31:42:02 - 00:32:02:04
Atiq Zaman
This is even a massive challenge. What we haven't actually addressed is atmospheric plastic pollution. So when you talk about microplastic, the plastic problem we can control that. But atmospheric microplastic and atmospheric nanoplastic - kind of carried by cloud - we don't have any control system in our cloud.
00:32:02:09 - 00:32:15:03
David Karsten
That I - I've got to be honest, I've not even thought about that. I mean, microplastics in the sea - absolutely, everyone knows about that and is heavily concerned about what's going on with our oceans. But now we're talking about clouds.
00:32:15:03 - 00:32:15:22
Atiq Zaman
Yes.
00:32:15:24 - 00:32:17:00
David Karsten
Tell me more.
00:32:17:02 - 00:32:42:05
Atiq Zaman
Okay, so that's the term we use - called atmospheric microplastic. Yeah. So we have seen the microplastics - we talk about degradation. All of these - let's say if we degrade in our backyard, that degradation will create microplastic. But that is concentrated in my soil, like in my backyard, you know. So that's really controlled. You can even control that, prevent that, you know - soil remediation.
00:32:42:06 - 00:32:44:01
Atiq Zaman
So all of this is controllable.
00:32:44:01 - 00:32:45:01
David Karsten
And contained.
00:32:45:02 - 00:33:08:13
Atiq Zaman
Contained. Yeah. But when it goes to the ocean, I would say it's less controllable, because now it is a vast ocean that is, you know, polluting and actually creating problems. Atmospheric microplastics - we don't have any control at all, because the microplastic and also the nanoplastic in that form propagate through the cloud system because of dust in our oceans.
00:33:08:15 - 00:33:35:22
Atiq Zaman
So the cloud system evaporates our ocean water. So it goes into the water cycle. So there's a new study actually done in the Himalayas - in the Himalayan mountains - and because of the glaciers and all those things. But you can see that the study shows there's a high concentration of atmospheric microplastic, even though there's nobody - no people actually going and throwing -
00:33:35:22 - 00:33:59:17
Atiq Zaman
Yes, that is happening in some of the touristy places. But if you look into the microplastic concentration that is increasing - and those microplastics are actually being taken up by the cloud - you can see that billions of people's freshwater source is the Himalayas. And what will happen if the concentration is too high - even that safe water or potable water is not safe anymore?
00:33:59:19 - 00:34:26:05
Atiq Zaman
So we are actually heading towards that. So that to me is like a more scary scenario - like, what will happen if we are really not controlling now, and by 2050 we are exposed to that situation more and more? And then maybe we'll talk about, okay, how can we address that. Unfortunately that would be too late, because we take for granted that, oh, there's a problem, but we are not thinking how much bigger this problem already is.
00:34:26:07 - 00:34:31:18
Atiq Zaman
And unfortunately, we are not addressing it the way we should. So, yes.
00:34:31:20 - 00:34:55:16
David Karsten
Yes, optimistic - cautiously optimistic. There's plenty of caution to be added to that. You've given us plenty of pause for thought. And it's also such a joy to have somebody who's progressed so remarkably through an academic career - interning at the UN in New York, you know, through to being part of this sustainable manufacturing and environmental pollution program here at Curtin.
00:34:55:16 - 00:35:11:23
David Karsten
And then going back to help out the UN - they called, they called for help - Atiq, over in Geneva last year, to address the UN Conference on Trade and Development as a circular economy engagement coordinator. What an absolute joy and pleasure to have you talk to us here today on The Future Of.
00:35:11:23 - 00:35:12:17
David Karsten
Thank you so much.
00:35:12:21 - 00:35:21:14
Atiq Zaman
It is my pleasure. And thanks a lot once again for inviting me and giving me this platform to talk about some of the things that I really love to talk about. So thanks a lot.
00:35:21:16 - 00:35:22:15
Celeste Fourie
Thank you.
00:35:22:16 - 00:35:38:01
David Karsten
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