What’s your role in reconciliation? Curtin experts discuss how we can support indigenous Australians.
Recent protests have shone a light onto the racism and discrimination that still exists all over the world in 2020. This has led Australians to reflect on discrimination close to home against indigenous peoples and contemplate how we can do better and become more inclusive as a nation.
In this episode, Tom is joined by Curtin Nyungar cultural advisor Mrs Ingrid Cumming and Curtin research Fellow Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker to discuss the topic of reconciliation and what we can do to bring all Australians together as one.
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of the university.
Music: OKAY by 13ounce Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0 Music promoted by Audio Library
Read the transcript for this episode
Intro:
This is the Future Of where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.
Tom:
Hello. I'm Tom . The recent Black Lives Matter protests across Australia have sparked fresh discussions about reconciliation. For indigenous and non-indigenous people, it's been a time of reflection, learning from our history and contemplating how we can do better to recognize, celebrate and unite all Australians. To discuss this topic with us today is Curtin's Nyungar cultural advisor, Mrs. Ingrid Cumming and Curtin research fellow professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker. Thanks for coming in today, Ingrid and Cheryl
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Kaya.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Kaya. Hello.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Hello.
Tom:
So Ingrid, to you, what is reconciliation?
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Reconciliation really for me is how we bring together two very unique worlds to go forward together as one, to maybe rewrite some of the history when first contacts occurred from the perspectives of each other, particularly from the colonials' point of view of the worth and the knowledge that was already there and maybe not collaborating more than we would hope. So reconciliation is about really remembering where we've come from, but also thinking about the vast amount of opportunities in front of us to work together two very unique world views and perspectives to make sure that my kids walk a much easier path in the hands of their non-indigenous brothers and sisters.
Tom:
Cheryl, what does reconciliation mean to you?
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Well, first of all, it's not a once-off event like in a week. That's the first thing I'd like to say. It's a process and it's actually a lifelong journey. And I think it's a lifelong journey where non-Aboriginal people really have to sit up and listen to the stories and the histories of Aboriginal people because that hasn't been done. And I don't think anyone can reconcile until the past is acknowledged and our histories are put into schools as well because at the moment, we only hear the European side of the version of Australia's histories and we don't have our histories in school systems. It's supposed to be and it's part of the cultural standards framework of the education department. But when teachers look for information, they're getting it off websites and stuff that aren't done by Aboriginal people. So it's still from the perspective of non-indigenous person.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So that's the first thing and reconciliation is about non-Aboriginal people learning and getting over their guilt because you can't bring two tribes together unless one tribe acknowledges what's happened to the other tribe basically. So I'd like to say that from ... reconciliation is a lifelong journey and it's a pathway that has to be taken by everybody. But I think the road ahead for non-Aboriginal people is far longer and traumatic for them if they don't listen to our people in the first place. You can't walk behind or in front of us, you got to walk beside us and to walk beside us, you've got to see the world through our lens and you can't do that unless you acknowledge what's happened in the past first.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Now some non-Aboriginal people will acknowledge that and they'll do that. And they don't know much about our people and they'll go along, and they'll understand and they'll learn all that history. And they'll make lifelong friends in our community. But then you've got a cohort of people that won't want to do that, and that's difficult. That piece is difficult, particularly if they're holding privileged positions in government. And when we're looking at reconciliation in government, particularly local, state and fed, and people who haven't reconciled with the past, they still have a view of how we are where there's low expectations, they can't do this, they can't do that, they pigeonhole our people, pigeonhole our community groups and that's not reconciliation.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So it's a personal journey first and then an organization or a government facility then has to do their institutional reconciliation as well. So it's a big, big, big, big, but there's always hope, always hope, always hope. And as Aboriginal people, we are an inclusive group of people and we'll always accept everybody into our realm, into our sphere of life. And people will have different, I guess, parts of the journey, like a train track, and they'll jump off at different stations and maybe they'll come back on because they've got to reconcile with themselves first before they can reconcile with the people that we have this history.
Tom:
You mentioned that it's a personal journey and an institutional one for both of you. I wanted to start with some institutions. So what can universities and schools do for reconciliation?
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Well, I've been here at Curtin University. Part of my role is to oversee the delivery of the Indigenous Cultural Capabilities Framework, which is an opportunity for students and staff to go through different training and professional development and experiences to build their cultural capacity as a student. So for the students, it's an opportunity to really challenge some of the preconceived notions about what indigeneity is or who are the traditional owners, why is that information important and how they can use that information when they go out and become doctors or engineers or journalists or whatever they choose to be.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
And for our staff, it's an opportunity for them to build the cultural capability to be able to deliver content which actually takes into account the stories and the histories of the First Nations, the First Peoples here, and really it's about capacity building, them to be able to work with all students that come here to Curtin University, including indigenous or Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
So we have that commitment to provide that for our staff and students under that Indigenous Cultural Capability Framework, which is a part of our Reconciliation Action Plan. And Curtin University is one of only two universities across Australia that actually have an Elevate Reconciliation Action Plan, which is the top tier reconciliation plan. So we're seen as leaders in reconciliation, but we haven't finished our journey yet by any stretch. There's a lot more work to be done. So Curtin certainly has a very strong commitment to making sure that not only do we keep celebrating the successes of the things that we're doing, but to really think strategically of how we can keep doing that in collaboration with our communities.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I will talk about schools because we've already spoken about the university system. So I spend a lot of time in primary schools, some high schools, not much, but I think for me, the big thing that I find ... I'll give you an example. My daughter comes home from school crying, and I thought I was over all this stuff, but here we go again, 10 years later. So I've got three children. One's 25, one's 20 and one's 10. And I thought when my son was going through school, things happened at school 'cause he's Aboriginal. Same thing happened with my daughter. And now here we go again, 2020 and we're doing the same again.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
She comes home really upset and kids are calling ... She's very dark-skinned girl so she'd get called names in class. And then the teacher tried to address some of this and moved my daughter away from this kid. So she was the perpetrator, you see, but my kid isn't. She won a citizenship award 'cause she's a very caring kind of girl, very much like her mum. And then, the teacher then proceeded to do some class activity on Aboriginal people where they're watching videos of when the colonizers first came and I guess stuff that happened back in history, and she was very upset about what she saw. To me, that's wrong. I think there was no Aboriginal person in that class to explain to those kids why we're watching this and what the impact of this was on those kids. Reconciliation is not just about coming together with two groups of people. It is acknowledging what's happened in the past, but that past is felt and rippled all the effects of trauma right through generations of people.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Another example is my dad's a stolen generation survivor. He was taken away at 4 years of age and put into a very cold country in Collie. And the impact of dad being taken away has had a impact on us as young people in his family. He's got eight kids and he's had probably more of an impact on his sons 'cause he was told his parents were dead and then he was told his parents didn't want him, but that was all lies. So my father grew up in this space where he wasn't allowed to talk to his sisters or his brothers ... his brother, I should say, and they weren't allowed to talk lingo. They weren't allowed to practice anything. They weren't allowed to ... None of that. So he grew up in that space. And so, it probably impacted his parenting of us, which has had a huge impact on all of us today.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
And then what I don't think the non-Aboriginal community don't understand is sometimes they say, "Well, reconciliation, we don't worry about the past. Let's work together now." Well, you can't, unless that past is reconciled because it's had a huge impact on all our families today and it's really, really difficult to watch.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
After Curtin, I run a sports program. So I see the impacts of some of that stuff where kids don't go to school because they're looking after, they're protecting themself because they don't want to be exposed to some of the ridicule and I guess the non-truths at school, but yet they turn up to my sports programs 'cause they know it's a safe place. We don't judge. That's the first thing. Kids are kids, they're human beings. So reconciliation is about treating each other as human being and at school environments, primary schools and high schools, they need to really engage the local community way better than they do. There are a lot of families do not go on to school grounds. They feel so alienated because of the look, it's the stare, it's a little snigger, it's ... And who wants to go there when you're already feeling no good as it is? That's really tough place to be.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
But my ARC Project that I've won, we're looking at a project called Cultural Learnings and we're going to do exactly what I just said, support cultural activities back in schools, develop it with the local Aboriginal community who have ownership of it. And then, we come in and we do some testing and see whether or not the school's doing the right thing. So the blame isn't on the Aboriginal folk and the blame isn't on anyone else. It's the part of our history that we both need to claim because Australia's heritage is also the Aboriginal history, and that has to be claimed first before we can move forward.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
If you don't mind, I mean the ... What Aunty says is so true. I mean I have a ... We're very different generations, you and I, but my-
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I'm not that old. Jeez!
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Yeah.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I am actually. My knees are sore.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
You're still deadly, Aunty. We all know this. But my daughter's 13 and many years ... Well, not many, but maybe four years ago, she comes home saying, "Oh, Mum, today, we learned Nyungars walked to Uluru." And I said, "Baby, how many times have you seen mum walk to the shop?" She goes, "Not many." And I said, "Well, do you know where Uluru is?" And she said, "No." And then I showed her. And I said, "Now how likely is it, all those years ago, we would walk all the way to Uluru?" And she said to me, "So is my teacher wrong?" I said, "Well, it's not about wrong or right," even though we know probably the information is not accurate, "but it's about your teacher has been afforded a certain version."
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Yes.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
"Or certain information. She's passed it on to you in the best of intentions."
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Yes, yes.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
"However, you know as a young Nyungar girl ... " And that for me was around the time I was doing Nyungarpedia, which was the ARC grant that Curtin was involved in and that was creating the first Aboriginal bilingual Wikipedia page in history. And that took the expertise of all of the non-indigenous Wikipedia mob and them teaching us Nyungars how you create a page and how do you monitor and how do you do this stuff on the third most searched site in the world, which is Wikipedia. And the Nyungar community, working with Wikipedia to say, there's just some things that aren't free public knowledge. There's some things that need to have certain permissions and there's certain cultural nuances and things that you need to understand to be able to have that information. You can't take that photo. And then together, those two worlds work together. We were never supposed to create this thing, but we ended up creating it.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
So it sounds like you have those experiences with your kids and go, "I can't believe this crap is still happening," but then there's glimmers of hope when you do projects like what Aunty’s doing and the Nyungarpedia and the stuff we're doing at Curtin through Nowanup, which gives you hope because we know there is a lot of wadjela fellows, non-indigenous fellows out there that want to walk with us. That's what Aunty said. They have to walk with us as we walk with them. And again, for me, that's what reconciliation is about is walking together in the true, authentic way that you would expect it is we're both part of the narrative.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Yeah. I reckon there's been a shift. I think like in the primary schools that I worked with going back when I did my PhD, if I would've said anything about Aboriginal anything, they would go, "No, no, no, no, we can't do that. No, no, no, no." But now, like my daughter brought this other assignment home and it was titled The Battle of Pinjarra. Right? So you and I both know it was not a battle of Pinjarra. It was a massacre. So I explained to my daughter what really happened. She's like, "What?" I said, "But I need to come talk to your teacher." Now her teacher will talk to me. I feel like there's a change in the air and there are really good people out there willing to put their tools down and go, "Bless you. I never knew and I do want to know." And if they know and I know, then the kids and the families that we work with and that are in our community, they'll benefit.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I'll tell you now, if the world was in the hands of the children that I work with in the Kaat Koort and Horizons program, this world is going to be brilliant because we've got 16 different nationalities playing in our basketball program alone. And all those kids have been together for seven years and they get on like a house on fire. So it's kind of like a mini United Nations going. Yeah, they might have a smash here and there, but they learn to get over it pretty quickly and they do it together. And that to me is reconciliation like 101. They just don't talk. They actually do together.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
We've actually also done some youth summits. We did the Guthoo Youth Summit in Kalgoorlie with only Aboriginal kids. And we did the Gnaala, which was with Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal kids here in Midland. And again, all the kids were trained to event manage and then get on stage and then portray in all the fields of performance what life was like for them so the people in the audience can understand. Now, it wasn't all doom and gloom. If there was something bad or sad, they had to say how to make it better. What was their answer for it? You can't ...
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
And reconciliation was a huge part of that. I've got photographs of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal kids, vulnerable kids, other indigenous groups all together for one movement. So I'm really proud to be able to have been working with these kids for such a long time, and their families are brilliant, great people. Hey, just give them an opportunity and water and a bit of hope, anything's possible.
Tom:
In terms of that sharing of knowledge and speaking to people and people being willing to put down their tools and learn, I think there's a role for language in that. And as you were talking about with Wikipedia, can you tell me about the role of language in reconciliation?
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
So I mean my old man, Professor Len Collard from UWA, he was here. I think he's still associate professor here actually as well. He once told me that “noonar wongi daa wongi wiern wah”: the language is the way to connect with the old people. And for me, I know in my particular journey when some terribly traumatic things happened in my childhood, but when I came to Curtin University and I met a guy named Tim McCabe, he told me about how he'd worked with, and this is a wadjela man, he'd worked with Nyungars and they'd taught him the language and that it was very important for me in my healing and progression to learn my language and my culture, and he was dead right.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
And we don't have the exposure to language speakers like we used to, particularly, even though my old man is a strong speaker during the time, the relationship was on and off because of things that were going on. But I would sit down in the old Aboriginal library at CAS, and I would read these books and I would talk to this wadjela man teaching me about language that he learned from a very highly respected elder. And then I started going, "Well, this is really empowering." And all these things, things that happened to me that were told that they were part of my culture and all this negative stuff around Aboriginality, I don't think this is accurate. And it was the language and it was a learning of culture that started to open up this different door or perception to all of the negative stuff that I'd been fed as a young girl to really support and perpetuate bad people's behaviors.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
And then, you walk across the road and you've got Uncle Bob and Aunty Selena Eggington and the Kootamia Kwob Healing Center, again, the use of language, the use of cultural practice, and I started to realize that this culture, this language is actually my birthright. It's a huge part of my identity. It's a big part of my strength and how important that was in my journey to be whatever I chose to be. And that really helped me alleviate this tag of I'm not what happened to me. I am a powerful Nyungar woman with very strong links to culture, with strong energies and spirits looking after me and a huge community that wants the best for me. And that really set me on a course of feeling very empowered.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
So in the work that I'd done with Nyungarpedia and a whole bunch of other stuff I've done, and now the stuff that I'm supporting here at Curtin, the importance of the language, and not just for our mob, but for our wadjela mob. You don't have to be noonar maat yuwart koorliny wah, your skin color has no impact on your journey. It shouldn't have any impact on your journey for we all know we still have these issues around race and color, but that was never a Nyungar thing. It shouldn't be part of our or any of our journeys together. Our people want to hear us wongi. They want to hear her speaking the language. They want to see humans connecting with the culture and continuing those song lines and continuing that culture.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
So my role as a custodian of country is to make sure that when people come onto my ancestors' country, they know the language, they know the culture, they have the connection, they know the rules for their safety and for their empowerment and for their safety, and to finally look at this space from the dual lenses that exist. We have the Western world. We can't go backwards. Nothing's going to change in that sense. But there is the Nyungar cultural world, which includes the language that needs to be understood and respected for all of us to go forward.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Noonar baal wongi, you should be talking Nyungar to me at some stage, brother. Me and you have good yarn, and sister girl.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Unfortunately, I know more French and Turkish. No, I'm serious. Yeah.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
I can speak semi-fluent Italian-
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I know.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Before I could speak semi-fluent Nyungar.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I speak really good French.
Tom:
Could you speak to the role of someone like myself who's non-indigenous learning Nyungar language? How important is that maybe for non-indigenous people?
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Well, first of all, we've got a free online Nyungar language course that you can do that Curtin provides, and you can enroll anytime you like and work through it, and I really encourage people to do it. It's also a bit of a sort of cultural capacity course for people as well, particularly on Nyungar. Why it's important, there's no words to describe the feeling you get as a Nyungar person when you walk into a building and the first thing you see is some kind of Nyungar language. And it's that respect, someone's taken the time to acknowledge and respect your language and your culture, and that's automatically decolonizing a space.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
There's some work around the university, have a look, but if you're going to work in any industry, if you want to be a journalist, a doctor, an engineer, you're going to work with Nyungar people, and cultural immersion and cultural capability and the use of culture and language in collaboration with communities is going to be part of your work at one point or another of your career. So it's just another value add. It's another notch in your belt.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
A notch in your belt.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Yeah.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I reckon I could do a call out to Southwell Primary School and Hilton Primary School. When I first went to Hilton, they had an assembly and all the kids sang a Nyungar song all in language and I was like wow! This is like, oh, about 12 years ago. When I went to Southwell, everything's bilingual like in New Zealand. Everything's bilingual, English, and there's a Nyungar version on all, everything, all the buildings. It wasn't just a painting. There was all language everywhere. It was brilliant.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Then I go into my area where I live and I go towards school, very multicultural, and on the front door is welcome, all the languages but our language. And there was only four letters, K-A-Y-A, right, to put on the front door. And I don't know if the school did it, but that was kind of a shame because majority of Aboriginal people live where I live in the Metro area and they didn't acknowledge even that.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So language is really important for places of significance, particularly Perth’s real name. And I put a proposal to a certain local government authority to put bilingual language signs up of corridors of coming into country and yeah, that went out the door. They weren't ready for that. But it's thanks to the work for George Walley as well, because I know George did a lot of work down in Mandurah and did a lot of signage of specific places and bridges and things like that and it's really good, but that needs to happen everywhere.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
When people first come to Australia through WA, they don't get to see any of that. Their image of Aboriginal people is someone very, very dark skinned in a red desert. Well, that's like six hours from here, but in Perth, it's a little bit different. So the image is here and the language that is associated with that is also part of the reconciliation process because for acknowledgement, and it's a sign of respect as well so ...
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Hang on. Didn't us mob walk to Uluru though? That's what I've been told recently.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
No.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
No?
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I don't know. I think language is important, too, because we don't just ... Even though we're on Nyungar country and I'm a traditional owner wadjuk nyungar country, I'm married to ngullundharra walyan wongutha person you see and I know his language just as much as I know mine. So my kids have, oh, I think it's five cultural lines, tribes within, nyungar being one and which is wadjuk, yuet and ballardong, and then the wongutha people and the ngullundharra walyan on his side. So when they all come together, both my husband and I have instilled in our kids those five different tribes and what they all mean, where they're located. There's a lot of talking about languages. There's a lot of similarities between the Wangatha and Nyungar, but there's also huge differences.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So when you're talking about reconciliation and particularly in classrooms with kids, you can't throw all Aboriginal people in one cup and we're all the same because that is not the case at all. And a good example would be going to funerals. So going to a nyungar funeral is generally pretty quiet. I could only say it like that because people show the respect of ... There's a lot of hugging, of course, and all that sort of stuff, but you go to wongi, it's very different, way different. And I got a big shock when I first went, even I got a big shock because I wasn't ready for what I was going to see. And it's very loud and a lot of wailing, which is their way of showing respect. And yeah, even me, I'm an Aboriginal person, but even I got a shock.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So when we talk to our kids, we have to explain to our kids what's going to happen so they're prepared so ... And I embrace all Aboriginal groups, too. I don't stick to Nyungar, even though I am Nyungar myself, we encourage a lot of non-Aboriginal and other Aboriginal groups into anything that I do, any of the yarns that I have 'cause I think it's really important 'cause it comes down to heart. I've got a big heart and I like to teach and I think of everyone as family.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
And so for me, if that's my way of helping in that reconciliation process, then most people I've come by, do have a really good heart. They just may not have learned some of the history and some of the ... or they don't know currently why we do things a certain way. And most people have a good listening heart and they'll sit and they'll be very ... Just like what you're doing now, I'm reading your body language. They will do what's needed to get over that first phase.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I've got some, there's a lot of people in my life now that have been around a long time because they've got really good hearts and they truly treat people like a human being more than anything. And I really think that's really the key. Aren't we all just one people? There's a lot of differences I know, but there's also a lot of similarities.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
I did go to another place of learning. I cannot mention this place. And I was looking, oh, did a special class for medical students. And I was asked whether or not Aboriginal people were full of blood by a third-year medical student. And I said, "Excuse me?" And I was so frightened that that person was going to go out and work in our community. I said, "We're built the same way as you and the heart's pumping in the same direction. Blood is the same color." I had to explain that. She didn't really understand. That was a really weird question.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
There's a huge duty of care that people like us and many others have when taking our non-indigenous brothers and sisters on that reconciliation journey because I mean we don't want to live in the past. We don't want to be retraumatized. But like Aunty says there's that truth telling that needs to happen so people can make informed decisions, but for a lot of non-indigenous people that haven't had the exposure to the past and the current situation for a lot of indigenous people across Australia, it can be very confronting. It can be very traumatic. It basically takes the comfort zone or the understandings in which they've lived in their entire life and just shakes it all up.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
And so, we have an exceptional duty of care to be able to take people on that journey of learning, but at the same time, don't scare them off or don't traumatize them too much or safely take them on that journey, that they don't stay in this guilt realm or this feeling sorry for our stuff. We're telling you this stuff to be informed and feel empowered that you can certainly be a part of the solution or the solutions going forward rather than contributing to the ongoing problem so-
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
That's a good point. And if I look at that with the COAG indicators for our people and how governments, and I will have a crack at them here, keep the status quo the way it is so that we are disempowered and the people at the helm are not engaged with the communities they're supposed to be servicing because we are the most, we're the largest employer of people in Australia, Aboriginal people. And there's a lot of money spent on our people, but the money that flows down to our community is very little because people who make those decisions are either not on that reconciliation train or they've jumped off too early.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So they keep the status quo. They keep the system in place to keep us in our place, you see, which is not part of reconciliation at all. You can't empower a community and give them rights unless you go through reconciliation. That's why I was talking about the organizational reconciliation because there's a lot of systems in place that are quite institutionalized racism, and which just goes part and parcel with reconciliation, whether it happens or not.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Anyone can have a RAP plan, those are words on a paper, but what you do about it is a different story and that's how we measure people. People can talk, but what your body language says could be completely different to what you're saying. And it's the same with government levels. The government has a lot to do with our people.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So we exist to keep them as true and authentic as possible, but sometimes it's really hard because the person that you're dealing with at the other end of the phone call, they are a long way off on that reconciliation journey. It's very tiring if you're working in a community and I know you would say this, there's not many of us Aboriginal folk out there. There's not a lot of us anywhere. We're not a big population and the people that are always fighting, fighting, fighting are getting tired and run down.
Tom:
Just one final question from me, I'm getting the impression that actions obviously speak louder than words. What happens next? So, what is the next step that needs to take place for those actions to be speaking louder?
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Well, it's staying true, isn't it, to if you're going to have a RAP, I mean the middle word is action. So always being accountable for the actions that are actually within that reconciliation plan. That's the whole point of it is not to be a document on a shelf. It is a ongoing working document and journey where you say that in relation to respect, opportunities and relationships, we, as an organization, are committed to building on that and meeting those key performance indicators we would hope to see.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
In relation to Curtin, we have programs. We have opportunities for people to engage, to come along and have experiences with our community to start their thinking about what part do I play in reconciliation? What's my personal Reconciliation Action Plan that I can reflect on? Because like Aunty said, if you're a teacher and my 13-year-old's in your classroom, I would hope that during your university training, you've collated a whole bunch of resources and contacts and relationships with the indigenous community to be able to deliver authentic material.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So like you said, the personal journey, I think people personally have to say, "I don't know much. I need to know more. I need to go find out. I need to make some friends. I need to socialize." And that's where sport's a good place to do that. So that's where if anyone's out in the Midland Ellenbrook area, they can come and contact me and I can cook them up. We have a lot of non-Aboriginal people in our programs, so sports programs, so they help us with our kids. We've even given them the title kinship champions in some of the adults because they are kin to their own people. We've taught them how the kinship care model works and when families are not doing so well when they're by themselves, a lot of wadjela families are like that, they'll come to us and they'll break down and start crying. "I don't have any family," but you do. You have us. So we're teaching them. We're actively teaching them. We're actually action and then they give back. So it's all about reciprocity as well as giving back.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
So on a personal level, it's people opening up their hearts and themselves to what's possible. From say a school point of view, reconciliation has to happen every day. It's not a once a week, like NAIDOC, cannot happen once a week. And I think in all sorts of institutions and government and everything like that, we need Aboriginal people as leaders with power, not just on advisory committees. We need them to be able to make decisions and someone takes that decision and produces action.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
And in regards to Australian politics I guess, and I'll say this, but it might sound, I don't know, a bit radical, but I'll say it anyway. We need our own parliament because if we're not going to ... Otherwise, I'm on this One Voice with Ken Wyatt. We're putting together a co-design of a voice to parliament and it's good. It's a start in the right place. And we've got to start somewhere. But my legacy I'm hoping will be that the next piece is have mandated Aboriginal positions in all levels of parliament, all local government authorities. I hope WALGA's out there and they're listening to this.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
And then with the state and federal, the same thing. And once we have that done, then hopefully, we might have our own parliament, like the Sami people, Norway in the Laplands. I mean look, they're doing brilliant over there with regards to that and they did that years and years and years ago. So Australia, really want to be really true about reconciliation, we need to be in power ourselves. We don't need anyone talking for us. We're quite qualified, experienced, have the heart, and we'll bring everyone on a journey with us 'cause that's what reconciliation's really all about.
Tom:
Okay. Thank you. I think we'll leave it there. Thank you again, Ingrid and Cheryl.
Professor Cheryl Kickett-Tucker:
Thank you.
Mrs Ingrid Cumming:
Thank you.
Tom:
I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and share your knowledge on this topic. You've been listening to the Future Of a podcast powered by Curtin University. If you have any questions about anything that we've raised today, you can get in touch by following the links in the show notes. Bye for now