From helping elderly people to cross the road to finding a free parking space, technology is helping to make our cities safer and more enjoyable. But at what cost to our privacy?
From helping elderly people to cross the road to finding a free parking space, technology is helping to make our cities safer and more enjoyable. But at what cost to our privacy?
In this episode, David and Celeste are joined by Dr Courtney Babb, a senior lecturer in urban and regional planning at Curtin University. They explore the benefits of integrating technology in urban areas, such as efficiency, security and quality, but also look at the implications, including surveillance and privatisation.
Courtney Babb is a senior lecturer in urban and regional planning at the School of Design and the Built Environment (DBE), at Curtin University. His research interests include institutional change and design in spatial planning; transport institutions and the politics of resisting auto-mobility; transitions to low energy transport systems; and integrated planning and management of riverine environments.
This podcast is brought to you by Curtin University. Curtin is a global university known for its commitment to making positive change happen through high-impact research, strong industry partnerships and practical teaching.
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au
Hosts: David Karsten and Celeste Fourie
Producer: Emilia Jolakoska
Writer: Zoe Taylor
Executive producer: Natasha Weeks
Curtin University acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the First Peoples of this place we call Australia, and the First Nations peoples connected with our global campuses. We are committed to working in partnership with Custodians and Owners to strengthen and embed First Nations’ voices and perspectives in our decision-making, now and into the future.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
00:00:00:05 – 00:00:10:00
David Karsten
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.
00:00:10:02 – 00:00:11:00
David Karsten
I'm David Karsten.
00:00:11:04 – 00:00:39:01
Celeste Fourie
And I'm Celeste Fourie. According to the UN, 68% of the world's population will live in urban areas by 2050. To keep up with this rapid population growth and the resulting demands on infrastructure, services and the environment, we have to be smarter about urban planning and development. Around the world, cities are leveraging technology and data to improve their liveability, sustainability and productivity.
00:00:39:03 – 00:00:45:21
Celeste Fourie
So what does this look like in reality? And does more technology inevitably mean more surveillance?
00:00:45:24 – 00:01:04:18
David Karsten
Well, with us today to explore smart cities is Doctor Courtney Babb, a senior lecturer in urban and regional planning at Curtin University. We explore what makes a city smart and look at local examples of smart cities in practice. If you'd like to find out more about this research, you can visit the links provided in the show notes.
00:01:04:20 – 00:01:10:14
Celeste Fourie
Courtney, what is a smart city and why do we need cities to be smart?
00:01:10:17 – 00:01:40:09
Courtney Babb
I suppose there's a simple answer to that, but it is a lot more complicated. But we’ll start with the simple answer. Smart cities are about information and, more accurately, I suppose, about data. So it's about utilising data that comes from the city. It's about how people use the city. It's about the different systems within the city, and it's about capturing that data and using it for particular purposes, making a better, more liveable city.
00:01:40:11 – 00:02:09:17
Courtney Babb
Helping our transport systems operate more efficiently – all of these kinds of things. IBM came up with a kind of definition or description of smart cities, which I think is quite useful for a basic understanding. They talked about smart cities as being instrumented, integrated and intelligent. So instrumented means that there are lots of sensors out in the built environment, all ways that we capture data.
00:02:09:19 – 00:02:36:12
Courtney Babb
Integrated means that data is collected in a repository or data set, and it's integrated with lots of different types of data. And then intelligent means that we apply some analytic skills or techniques to it to make use of it. Then we can plan and use that data to better manage cities and also better plan them for future growth.
00:02:36:14 – 00:02:51:15
David Karsten
Courtney, IBM's been around for a while. It's a name I haven't heard in some time. I would suggest that smart cities, or the concept of smart cities, has been around for a little while now. Are there examples of countries and cities that are doing this well?
00:02:51:17 – 00:03:11:21
Courtney Babb
Yeah, so it is a term that's been around for a while, but it's actually an idea that extends a lot older than the term smart cities itself. I might talk about that a little bit later, but there was a lot of activity around smart cities in the 90s, from the 1990s onwards.
00:03:11:23 – 00:03:37:02
Courtney Babb
Smart cities were seen as a way to enhance green growth in a lot of cities. A good example – and a place I took a bunch of students in 2023 and 2024 – was South Korea. I think Singapore sort of kicked off smart cities globally, South Korea a little bit later, but a really great example of a very mature and well‑funded smart cities urban program.
00:03:37:04 – 00:04:04:11
Courtney Babb
We visited a city called Songdo, which is within the Seoul metropolitan area. It was a purpose‑built city – sometimes described as tabula rasa or a blank slate.
00:04:04:13 – 00:04:29:04
Courtney Babb
That's not technically correct because they destroyed a lot of tidal flats and very sensitive wetlands to build the city. But it was constructed in the early 2000s. It's a purpose‑built smart city where all the infrastructure is integrated. It has water recycling, a range of sensors, cameras everywhere in the city.
00:04:29:04 – 00:05:01:24
Courtney Babb
This is all collected within a data centre – an AI command centre, basically. We took our students there. We could see 50 screens from various cameras around the city and people sitting there monitoring this. So the data is collected in real time. In this case, the operations centre responded to images coming in from traffic, or if there's a flood or something like that, and they can respond and direct services to where there might be an emergency.
00:05:02:01 – 00:05:08:05
Courtney Babb
Yeah, a range of things. South Korea is a really good example of a very mature smart city.
00:05:08:07 – 00:05:30:12
David Karsten
Courtney, I've just remembered – and no word of a lie – probably between 2008 and 2010, I was actually there. I was in Songdo during a lot of the construction, or the back end of the construction, of that precinct, and it was astounding. It really was a ground‑up view and a ground‑up approach.
00:05:30:12 – 00:05:50:15
David Karsten
Yeah, to creating exactly what you've explained to us. But yeah, even from the moment you come through that airport, which I'm sure even now just looks... it's Incheon, isn't it? It still is probably the most futuristic and stunning airport you'll ever see. The South Koreans have had such a forward‑thinking approach to this.
00:05:50:15 – 00:05:59:17
David Karsten
And what have been the benefits in Songdo now that they've got all of this – this research, this real‑time data collection – under their belts?
00:05:59:19 – 00:06:21:12
Courtney Babb
It has a bit of a mixed kind of reception in terms of whether it's a good city. People note when they first go there that there's... there's not a lot of people around, very wide streets. So, you know, great infrastructure, great – 40% of Songdo is open space and parks. So very, very generous outdoor living. That's, yeah.
00:06:21:14 – 00:06:40:12
Courtney Babb
So it has a reputation for not being, you know, not being particularly... it's got a bit of a ghost‑town feel. I think that's changing. And we, as part of the study tour when the students were up there, we went and talked to residents and talked to people about what it was like to live there.
00:06:40:12 – 00:07:05:04
Courtney Babb
And it is changing. The people who live there appreciate it and like the particular services available. But it also tends to be for more wealthy residents – so, who can afford to live there. Songdo has a good reputation for being what we call a kind of utopian smart city.
00:07:05:06 – 00:07:29:01
Courtney Babb
So it's the idea of the city as a whole being infused with technology, and technology helps the city to function. There are examples – Songdo is one example – and there are others in the Middle East and Africa. There are a lot of purpose‑built smart cities or ideas. A lot of this is based on that idea as well.
00:07:29:01 – 00:07:58:06
Courtney Babb
What I've focused on in my research, and this follows the work of a number of scholars in this area, is what we call the actually existing smart city. This is the idea that we should move away from thinking about smart cities as this total, utopian vision and look more at the subtle ways that digital technologies are being integrated into cities.
00:07:58:08 – 00:08:27:06
Courtney Babb
Urban development is a lot more messy than this kind of process in Songdo, which was very well‑funded and was on reclaimed land. So it didn't have that messiness of cities. The scholarship on actually existing smart cities looks at projects and smaller‑scale instances where smart or digital technology is being integrated, and takes that as a starting point.
00:08:27:06 – 00:08:47:15
Courtney Babb
And what that does – it's useful because it points to the different varieties of smart cities. So getting away from this idea of a big utopian smart city, we can start to think about cities as being surveilled spaces through cameras, through increasingly more automation through technology – automated cities, artificial intelligence.
00:08:47:15 – 00:09:05:11
Courtney Babb
And we can look at the different aspects and how they are emerging in smaller projects, in local governments. And that's important, particularly for Australia, where that's the main type of smart city investment that is being made – smart city projects that are being rolled out.
00:09:05:13 – 00:09:15:24
Celeste Fourie
It sounds like smart cities, and the concept of them, has been around for a while. Traditionally, how has urban development usually been done?
00:09:16:01 – 00:09:51:10
Courtney Babb
It's a lot more fragmented. And the projects are smaller, piecemeal. They get built at different stages. And they might be part of an overall vision, but the way urban development proceeds is a lot more incremental. And that's affected by a lot more stakeholders having a say in the decision‑making – developers, community members, as well as planners, engineers, architects, who are more directly involved in producing the built environment.
00:09:51:12 – 00:10:15:09
Courtney Babb
So we have to, as planners, try to accommodate and listen to all those voices within the urban development process, and make that part of how we develop, rather than a sort of top‑down vision imposed upon people. So again, that creates... I like the word messiness. It's something we need to embrace as planners.
00:10:15:11 – 00:10:31:10
Courtney Babb
Often plans don't go according to how we originally saw them, and plans take time as well. Cities take time to evolve. So we need to respond to that.
00:10:31:12 – 00:10:46:00
Celeste Fourie
The Wharf Street Basin in Cannington, Perth is WA's first ever smart park. Can you tell us a little bit more about this project and your involvement? And what exactly is a smart park?
00:10:46:02 – 00:11:16:24
Courtney Babb
Sure. So this project was funded through the Smart Cities and Suburbs scheme, through the Smart Cities Plan – the federal government's plan. The Wharf Street Basin was, well, previously before it became a smart park, a fenced‑off stormwater basin in the City of Canning. The Canning City Centre is undergoing a transformation as part of the activity centre and turning into urban regeneration.
00:11:17:01 – 00:11:38:20
Courtney Babb
And that activity saw, near the train station, high‑density development in this area. Because it's a flat area, it's near the river – stormwater and stormwater drainage is a big issue. So they have a number of stormwater drains in the area. You might know these – the pipes that are usually fenced off, with a drain on a suburban block.
00:11:38:22 – 00:12:05:09
Courtney Babb
Sometimes they'll be a linear drain. These are to protect households and surrounding areas from flooding. So the Wharf Street Basin was a fenced‑off drain. No one used it in the centre of Canning. And through the Smart Cities and Suburbs scheme, the City of Canning, with the Water Corporation and a number of other stakeholders, including Curtin and us as researchers...
00:12:05:11 – 00:12:26:21
Courtney Babb
…the park received money to be transformed into what was called a smart park. I'm not sure many people knew at the time what a smart park was or what it could be, but it was really about using technology to leverage the things that... the functions of an urban park in this context.
00:12:26:21 – 00:12:47:19
Courtney Babb
And this is, you know, people want to use it if they live in the apartments. It needs to have space for, you know, for walking, integration with the natural environment there. It was a place for... because it was a stormwater drain, there was education there about the role of stormwater drains in cities.
00:12:47:19 – 00:13:22:01
Courtney Babb
So there was an education component. And really it became a kind of multi‑functional park. It wasn't just a park to go to – it was also there to sort of secure the long‑term viability of the area by having high‑quality public space. Technology formed a really important part of that. So a lot of the sensors used there were smart bins that told you when they needed emptying, public Wi‑Fi, environmental sensors about the water quality.
00:13:22:03 – 00:13:47:12
Courtney Babb
And this was fed to an open‑data platform. And that was to be used by researchers to see, in real time, how water quality was being affected in the area and how it was functioning ecologically. And CCTV cameras, and also a range of other informative technology as well.
00:13:47:12 – 00:14:06:19
Courtney Babb
There were augmented‑reality stations in which people had apps. They could go and learn about the animals that were in the park. And it would show you through the app on your phone – as you put your camera through this viewfinder – it would show you the different animals and things, and the flora and the ecology of the park.
00:14:06:21 – 00:14:22:01
Courtney Babb
So technology was there to serve a number of functions – safety, liveability, but also environmental knowledge, research, and community understanding of the role of stormwater‑drainage infrastructure.
00:14:22:03 – 00:14:28:18
Celeste Fourie
And the function of the stormwater basin was not affected at all? Or is it still fully operating?
00:14:28:20 – 00:14:55:15
Courtney Babb
Still fully operating as... yeah. That was one of the challenges – the basin had to function as stormwater infrastructure. So that, you know, required some, I suppose, sort of clever design and sometimes difficult conversations. But ultimately, I think it was interesting to see the trade‑offs between the different functions to make this space work.
00:14:55:17 – 00:15:13:10
Courtney Babb
So we followed it in its implementation. We also followed it after it was built and watched it, observed the park every year and how people used it. It's a very successful park. But I think one of the interesting things about this is that the technology wasn't the main factor that made it a success.
00:15:13:16 – 00:15:39:21
Courtney Babb
You know, there are definitely some great elements to the technology that did work. But some of them... because it was a very tight time frame – it had to be delivered in a very short amount of time – we didn't really have the organisational knowledge for a lot of the tech side of it. So a lot of it was learning, and that was part of the Smart Cities plan, to build that capacity.
00:15:40:02 – 00:15:51:11
Celeste Fourie
It seems like these smart cities and parks do employ a lot of technology, such as cameras. Is there a risk of creating these surveillance areas?
00:15:51:11 – 00:16:10:21
Courtney Babb
Cameras are a big part of smart cities. When we went to Seoul in South Korea, that was one of the things we really noticed – that there were cameras everywhere. But also, there was a lot of disclosure about where there were cameras and what they were being used for.
00:16:10:23 – 00:16:39:22
Courtney Babb
Surveillance also happens in different ways. Obviously through our phones, we’re sort of geolocated now, so we can be smart about where we are as well. But also then you link that up with... we think of surveillance as being conducted by the government, but corporations use surveillance through technologies and smart technologies as well.
00:16:39:24 – 00:17:02:08
Courtney Babb
So there’s a real desire to link datasets as well. Through surveillance, the data becomes very powerful. It can tell us more about the behaviour of users – their attitudes, their preferences and things like this. But obviously there are privacy and ethical issues around that.
00:17:02:10 – 00:17:27:12
Courtney Babb
In South Korea, surveillance can have positive benefits. We asked many people about the cameras and what they thought. Many of them had not even considered them – it was something in the background. South Korea has reasonable data‑protection laws at the national level, so these things are important as well.
00:17:27:12 – 00:17:58:07
Courtney Babb
But we need to think about technologies as dual‑use technologies – they can have benefits, but there can also be harmful aspects. One of the problems is not so much the technology itself, but when we introduce a system of technology, say a surveillance system in a local government, it may be implemented in an ethical way or something like this, but the architecture of the infrastructure is there.
00:17:58:07 – 00:18:04:14
Courtney Babb
So it can be a very simple change later on, and that technology might be used for a different purpose.
00:18:04:16 – 00:18:24:19
Celeste Fourie
Courtney, you co‑authored a report that was published last year by the Australian Housing and Urban Research Institute. It was essentially about how data can be better used to protect homes from disasters such as floods, bushfires and cyclones. Can you tell us more about this research and its practical impact?
00:18:24:21 – 00:18:54:22
Courtney Babb
Sure. This research – it was really about how planners, and also others involved in planning and delivering housing, how they use data. Data is really important in this space due to the impacts of climate change, which are creating a lot more uncertainty about the impacts and also the magnitude and occurrence of fires, floods and cyclones.
00:18:54:24 – 00:19:18:19
Courtney Babb
So we were interested to get a sense of the state of the art in how data was being used in this space. What we did find is that the data landscape in Australia is very poor. Even though there can be good‑quality data out there, it's pretty fragmented.
00:19:18:21 – 00:19:44:01
Courtney Babb
In urban development, and particularly urban development for new housing, we need to think... usually it's local governments and state governments who are the key actors. But with hazards, you know, hazards often don’t respect administrative boundaries. We find that data can be good in one location or one organisation, and not so good in others.
00:19:44:01 – 00:20:19:12
Courtney Babb
So it’s very patchwork. Planners often didn’t know how to assess whether the data was good‑quality. They could see a dataset, but they didn’t know the assumptions that were built into it. And organisations were very siloed as well – they weren’t interested in sharing data. And to understand and really leverage this data, we need to think outside local administrative boundaries and think more systemically about this.
00:20:19:14 – 00:20:58:01
Courtney Babb
So we saw the situation in Australia was not great. There have been a number of, I suppose, solutions proposed to improve this. One of them is what we call digital twins. There’s kind of, in planning, this great hope in this technology to help us understand climate risk – to not only understand because, like I said, there’s a lot of uncertainty – but to create some scenarios, to explore what could happen, and to incorporate this kind of thinking into planning, rather than looking at historical...
00:20:58:01 – 00:21:21:13
Courtney Babb
…records, which is usually how data about risk and hazards has been done. So digital twins create a kind of digital version of a building or a precinct. We might be interested in, say, a river catchment or something like this to understand flooding. And it creates data in real time.
00:21:21:15 – 00:21:42:22
Courtney Babb
And it's responsive, so we can start to model systems rather than look at these issues in isolation. To understand how the systems might operate in this way, we can understand some of the impacts and start to think about them in the context of this uncertainty.
00:21:42:24 – 00:22:13:19
David Karsten
If listeners are interested in finding out more about the whole concept of digital twins, we actually had a great conversation here on this podcast with Ziad Osama. That was really informative. So we'll provide a link in the show notes to that one as well. I just... I have a question about the report and its end use. Is this very much also a response to spiralling insurance costs for homeowners?
00:22:13:19 – 00:22:38:04
Courtney Babb
It is. And insurance is one of the factors driving the need for research. It's driven by findings that large areas will be uninsurable in the future due to the risks of hazards. One of the things we did find in the research is that some of the best‑quality data is held by insurance agencies.
00:22:38:06 – 00:23:07:22
Courtney Babb
But that... yeah. And that also creates the imperative for sharing and how we can do that. But often that data is locked away – private, confidential. So there are considered efforts in the insurance industry and also government for ways to better share this data so that we can be acting on the best‑quality data that is available.
00:23:07:24 – 00:23:09:22
Celeste Fourie
Is our data safe?
00:23:09:24 – 00:23:29:08
Courtney Babb
That's a really good question. And I think it's one that we can ask whenever we're involved in these projects. So even as citizens, if there is a project that concerns us, these are the questions we need to ask: is it being secured? Is it being stored safely?
00:23:29:08 – 00:23:48:03
Courtney Babb
Are there safeguards, protocols in place that respect our privacy? Are we fully made aware of the way that data will be used? These are best practice in the ethical use of data, and they're not always evident in the messy world of urban development.
00:23:48:06 – 00:23:57:04
David Karsten
If there was one thing about Perth that you would change as an urban planner and designer to make it smarter, what would it be?
00:23:57:06 – 00:24:22:14
Courtney Babb
Okay. I'm... I'm a little sometimes... I'm a little cautious. We talk in urban planning about complexity, and there are no wicked problems, no simple solutions. Doing one thing will create a whole lot of other issues. But I'll have a go. One of my areas of research is urban mobility.
00:24:22:14 – 00:24:47:15
Courtney Babb
I think I mentioned that earlier. So I'm interested particularly in sustainable transport – trying to get people out of cars. Walking, cycling, scootering, whatever. And there are a number of reasons why we need to do this – decarbonisation, a whole range of issues – but particularly about liveability. These are better places to live.
00:24:47:15 – 00:25:08:20
Courtney Babb
I think if we have cities in which we don't need to rely on the car, and the car has less impact on our public spaces... And the built environment, given we're talking about digital urbanism, it's actually a very analogue thing. It's very material, and a lot of the best solutions are not necessarily technological solutions.
00:25:08:22 – 00:25:49:15
Courtney Babb
So I think, in terms of what I would do – and I'm going to step away from the technology – but we need drastically slower speeds to support people walking, wheeling or riding. Adequate infrastructure for people using alternative modes, separated infrastructure from busier roads, and good policy that helps people make better choices about their mobility. Better choices for themselves but also public‑interest choices.
00:25:49:17 – 00:26:11:12
Courtney Babb
Technology is really important to assist us in doing this, particularly in sustainable travel. And I mean, there are some amazing functionalities in terms of apps that can link us up with transport services so we can get around the city more easily, more conveniently.
00:26:11:14 – 00:26:43:22
Courtney Babb
And also, for planners and governments, there are technologies that allow them to manage and monitor transport systems in real time. All these things can be great. But really, I think we need to go back to the fundamentals – is technology necessary for this? Is there a solution that doesn't require it? There's so much in terms of the expense, the expertise. And I think a lot of the problems we have in cities, we can fix with solutions that were available a long time ago.
00:26:43:24 – 00:26:53:14
Courtney Babb
So I think, yeah, a lot of the problems we do have in cities, we can fix with very old solutions.
00:26:53:16 – 00:27:14:16
Celeste Fourie
A few years ago, there was a survey that found 45% of people had never heard of smart cities, and 54% didn't understand the concept. Do you think these stats have changed, and how can individuals get more involved in advocating for smart urban planning?
00:27:14:18 – 00:27:39:06
Courtney Babb
I would say the statistics have not changed that much. I don't think it's a big deal. I think smart cities is sometimes a confusing term and a bit of a distraction. I think it's better to think more about digital technology and how it's being implemented more generally at different points.
00:27:39:06 – 00:28:01:04
Courtney Babb
So I don't think it's a big issue if people don't understand smart cities. But I do think the best way for people to get involved is to ask questions about technology. And smart cities is a great term in that it draws attention to some of these technologies.
00:28:01:04 – 00:28:29:24
Courtney Babb
But sometimes they're being rolled out outside the smart cities label. There are some good groups that advocate for more rights around digital rights – worth getting involved in. So Digital Rights Watch, and the Centre for Responsible Technology is the other one. These groups advocate for the ethical use of technologies.
00:28:29:24 – 00:29:06:08
Courtney Babb
And digital rights more broadly. They touch upon smart cities. And I think Digital Rights Watch had a campaign recently about banning facial‑recognition technology in private spaces. So I think for people to be involved is to ask those questions. There’s a series of questions that are good in most settings: who's benefiting from this? Who's losing out? And what trade‑offs are being made across the public and private interests?
00:29:06:10 – 00:29:20:15
David Karsten
Courtney, you're a prolific author. We see a few papers being pumped out on a fairly regular basis by your good self. What's next for you in this research space? Because we are living in very interesting times, aren't we?
00:29:20:17 – 00:29:38:17
Courtney Babb
Yeah, we are. So I have a report coming out shortly, which is again on urban mobility, but it's been looking at last‑mile delivery. Since COVID, the rate of home delivery has increased. And it's...
00:29:38:17 – 00:29:39:05
David Karsten
Exploded.
00:29:39:06 – 00:30:16:09
Courtney Babb
It's exploded, yeah. And it's forecast to increase even more over the next decade and probably beyond that. So it's created an issue in terms of trying to get parcels – all those smaller parcels – to people in busy centres. We've been looking at the role of what we've called micromobility in this, in terms of small electronic devices or modes of transport to deliver that last‑mile package.
00:30:16:09 – 00:30:29:13
Courtney Babb
So basically to the door from the centre. We looked at cargo bikes, we looked at drones, and robots – delivery robots, which look like a little esky, yeah, that will drive along.
00:30:29:13 – 00:30:30:14
Celeste Fourie
Those in America.
00:30:30:20 – 00:30:33:18
David Karsten
In Sydney. Very cute. A little lot on the...
00:30:33:19 – 00:30:34:18
Courtney Babb
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:34:18 – 00:30:37:10
Celeste Fourie
And then sometimes cars run them over.
00:30:37:12 – 00:30:39:16
Courtney Babb
I wouldn't be surprised if they...
00:30:39:18 – 00:30:40:11
David Karsten
My Banh Mi!
00:30:40:11 – 00:30:42:17
Celeste Fourie
I've seen those videos, yeah.
00:30:42:18 – 00:31:07:00
Courtney Babb
Yeah, it does happen. And I think this is... with the robots, one of the key findings is we need to understand the trade‑offs in terms of the space these modes take up. Particularly in busy areas when you have a lot of people and competing demands for this space.
00:31:07:02 – 00:31:28:04
Courtney Babb
And the other one was drones as well. We have a couple of trials in Australia. We may get one here in Perth in the future. These are drones that deliver mainly convenience items – coffees, fast food.
00:31:28:05 – 00:31:33:16
Celeste Fourie
I wouldn't mind getting my coffee in the morning from the drone. That would be kind of cool.
00:31:33:17 – 00:31:50:13
David Karsten
Less and less reason now to actually step outside your front door, which in itself I think is frightening. But yeah, well, that's just me. And it's great that we've got people like you staying across it and keeping us informed as to the latest developments. We really appreciate you coming in today and talking to us about the development of smart cities.
00:31:50:18 – 00:31:51:19
David Karsten
Thank you very much.
00:31:51:21 – 00:31:52:11
Celeste Fourie
Thank you.
00:31:52:12 – 00:31:54:07
Courtney Babb
Thanks. Lovely to be... thanks.
00:31:54:09 – 00:32:09:17
David Karsten
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