Australia is banning social media for children 16 and under – but will it actually keep them safe or just spark new problems?
Australia is banning social media for children 16 and under – but will it actually keep them safe or only spark new problems?
In this episode, hosts David Karsten and Celeste Fourie are joined by Professor Tama Leaver, Professor of Internet Studies at Curtin University, to discuss Australia’s proposed ban on social media for children under 16.
We explore what the Ban aims to achieve, who it will affect, and whether it could reshape the relationship between government and big tech.
The discussion also ventures into what social media will look like when the ban comes into play, and how AI is creating a new internet for the next generation.
Professor Tama Leaver, Professor of Internet Studies at Curtin University
Tama is a regular media commentator, Chief Investigator in the ARC Centre of Excellence for the Digital Child and former president of the Association of Internet Researchers (AoIR).
This podcast is brought to you by Curtin University. Curtin is a global university known for its commitment to making positive change happen through high-impact research, strong industry partnerships and practical teaching.
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au
Hosts: Celeste Fourie and David Karsten
Content Creators: Zoe Taylor and Caitlin Crowley
Recordist: Caitlin Crowley
Producer: Emilia Jolakoska
Executive Producers: Anita Shore and Natasha Weeks
Curtin University acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the First Peoples of this place we call Australia, and the First Nations peoples connected with our global campuses. We are committed to working in partnership with Custodians and Owners to strengthen and embed First Nations’ voices and perspectives in our decision-making, now and into the future.
Curtin University supports academic freedom of speech. The views expressed in The Future Of podcast may not reflect those of Curtin University.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:09:13
David Karsten
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.
00:00:09:15 - 00:00:20:17
Celeste Fourie
I'm Celeste Fourie and I work here at Curtin University. I'm a part of the social media team and I'm your co-host for today on The Future Of.
00:00:20:19 - 00:00:23:10
David Karsten
And I'm David Karsten, the other co-host.
00:00:23:12 - 00:00:44:21
David Karsten
By now, you've probably heard about the Australian Government's plan to ban young people from social media. The ban is a world first and aims to protect children aged 16 and under from the pressures and risks of life online. But will a ban safeguard children from harm, such as cyberbullying, noxious content and excessive screen time?
00:00:44:23 - 00:00:50:15
David Karsten
And will it be a game changer for holding big tech companies accountable? Or will it all backfire?
00:00:50:17 - 00:01:13:18
Celeste Fourie
Joining us today to answer these questions is Professor Tama Leaver. Tama is a professor of Internet Studies at Curtin and chief investigator at the ARC Centre of Excellence for the Digital Child. To learn more about this topic, visit the show notes and be sure to follow us on your favourite podcast app so you don't miss an episode.
00:01:13:20 - 00:01:31:00
David Karsten
So, Tama, it's been a couple of years since we've seen you in the seat here in the podcast, and a couple of years is a long time in the social media landscape. And man, there's some there's some big changes are coming up. What is this social media ban all about? What's it designed to do?
00:01:31:02 - 00:01:59:11
Tama Leaver
So in essence, the social media ban addresses Australian parental anxiety. It is a mechanism that the government has rolled out to try and say that they are doing something about the perceived challenges of social media for young people. We know that there are some very real potential harms that young people have to navigate. And we know that that can happen especially intensely in that 13 to 16 year old bracket.
00:01:59:13 - 00:02:23:14
Tama Leaver
It's also a response to an American academic named Jonathan Haidt who wrote a book called The Anxious Generation that basically pinned all anxiety that young people feel on social media. Now, that particular book is not well loved in academic circles. It does that sleight of hand where correlation and causation look like the same thing and it ignores other factors.
00:02:23:14 - 00:02:44:11
Tama Leaver
For example, like, you know, the fact that young people are living through climate change and a world of, let's just say, a swing to the right in many national political schemes. So there's a lot going on. But if we zero down onto the root cause of this particular ban, it is a straight line from anxiety. Parents are stressed.
00:02:44:11 - 00:02:52:21
Tama Leaver
The government wants to look like it's doing something. And the answer is we're going to ban young people under the age of 16 from having social media accounts.
00:02:52:23 - 00:03:03:04
Celeste Fourie
So this legislation is set to come into effect on the 10th of December. What social media platforms are going to be included in that ban?
00:03:03:06 - 00:03:36:05
Tama Leaver
So the terrible thing, and we should acknowledge we're recording this in October, is we don't have the definitive list yet. We know that the big ones Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, X or Twitter, your preference there. Those platforms are definitely in and TikTok's definitely in. But there are a range of other platforms that are question marks currently. There's been some suggestion that game-like platforms that are also social media, like Roblox, might be included, but we don't have the definitive list, which is quite a thing that you would imagine having two months before it kicks in.
00:03:36:10 - 00:03:57:04
Tama Leaver
But we know the big platforms are definitely on that list, and we know that on December 10th, the first population to be removed will be the kids that are actually told the truth. So the kids that actually really did enter their birth date correctly, who are definitively 13, 14 or 15 will get booted off. And then over time, we're not even sure what the timescale is.
00:03:57:05 - 00:04:17:18
Tama Leaver
Slowly, the other kids who may have entered a false birthdate, eventually the technologies can infer from your activity and things like that, that you're probably in this age bracket, you'll get booted off too. We'll also have the experience of a bunch of people who are probably older than that, that the algorithm will say, you're probably under this age, will get booted off, and then they'll have to appeal and prove that they're not.
00:04:17:20 - 00:04:39:15
Tama Leaver
So that will happen at some point over December, probably. The downside of it being December 10th, of course, is that when schools are basically wrapping up, so the support mechanism of school won't be there. The critical mass of school won't be there. And we know that it's a low point in the media cycle. So there probably won't be a lot of reporting about the initial weirdness of experiencing the ban.
00:04:39:17 - 00:04:54:20
David Karsten
How does a government go about formulating it and consulting with, with the wider community, with the young people that are, I guess, the target group for this and and also with, with academia.
00:04:54:22 - 00:05:15:20
Tama Leaver
Yeah. So I think what we can safely say is that young people have had very little voice in this process. There were some one-day events that were held in South Australia and New South Wales late last year, where the premiers basically had, what we might call a sort of performative theatre of having a real discussion about this with certain experts were rolled out, and there was supposed to be consultation at this.
00:05:15:21 - 00:05:47:16
Tama Leaver
But interesting, the people that agreed with the policy were on the main stage and live streamed across the world, and there were breakout rooms that nobody ever saw. Where the nay-sayers were carefully corralled off in that process. Essentially, this policy was rubber stamped, and we know that there was minimal consultation with young people. We know that there was a lot of academics that believe that this is the wrong path, but we also know that there is enough anxiety about this that it was pushed through literally in the last tranche of legislation before the books closed before the last election.
00:05:47:16 - 00:05:56:02
Tama Leaver
So this was one of, I think, 17 pieces of legislation rushed through in the last three hours before the books were closed on the last government.
00:05:56:04 - 00:06:23:02
David Karsten
So, yeah, a real sprint to the finish line there. Tama, in terms of, of what it means for young people, is there a, is there a full understanding and appreciation for how, digital natives actually communicate between each other on a daily basis and the modes by which they, they, you know, converse is this is a big deal.
00:06:23:04 - 00:06:42:21
Tama Leaver
Yeah. Look, for a lot of young people, it seems that they either don't believe this ban is going to happen, or they believe they're going to get around it almost immediately. So they do feel that social media is the social fabric of their lives, and that idea of distinguishing, between the online and the offline experience just doesn't mean anything to young people today.
00:06:43:01 - 00:07:05:04
Tama Leaver
It's part of how they they are social. It's part of how they interact with their friends. So I think for them, often the the harms that are imagined in this space and there are some real harms here. We know, for example, people who are confronting, depression, people who are inclined to, disordered eating content being a red flag, that those are known harms.
00:07:05:04 - 00:07:24:02
Tama Leaver
And there are definitely things that need to happen to make these platforms safer and more appropriate for young people. But we also know that there are huge benefits. We know that these are platforms that enable young people to have a voice, to engage in politics, to interact with each other socially, to build, a raft of different skills.
00:07:24:07 - 00:07:46:09
Tama Leaver
So I don't think necessarily that the benefits have been weighed against the negatives. And I also think one of the, the most difficult things here is there is a bit of a bit of a sleight of hand where when there have been a couple of high profile parents rolled out who believe that their, their children have suicided because of something to do with social media, almost always, that's a story about cyberbullying.
00:07:46:11 - 00:08:07:13
Tama Leaver
Nothing about cyberbullying will be fixed by these platforms going away, because messaging platforms are not part of the ban. So it's a it's unfortunate that I think a lot of parents might feel like something's been done. And I think we need to be really careful to see just how little is actually being achieved by these specific platforms being inaccessible.
00:08:07:15 - 00:08:23:07
Celeste Fourie
Yeah. And I think a big question mark for me is when when I look at social media, I see one side of it being entertainment and the other side, I see it as communication tool for young people. I guess my question is, will those messaging platforms be affected by this ban?
00:08:23:11 - 00:08:43:20
Tama Leaver
Yeah. So as far as we know and again, big asterisks, we don't actually have the final list as we're recording. But what's supposed to happen is that messaging apps are exempt. So even though WhatsApp is a Facebook or Meta product, it's not supposed to be impacted by the ban, even though Instagram and Facebook Messenger, as far as I'm aware, would also not be captured by the ban.
00:08:44:00 - 00:09:09:01
Tama Leaver
Neither would sort of embedded messaging in sort of your, your, Apple or your Google platform. So there are those messaging platforms still existing means that young people will inevitably be using them more than the, embedded communication tools in the other platforms. Which means that any of the potential harms are probably going to simply shift to location rather than being dealt with in a meaningful way.
00:09:09:03 - 00:09:34:21
Tama Leaver
I guess the only thing that this ban might achieve is reducing the impact of algorithmic amplification. So we know that TikTok or Reels on Instagram or, YouTube Shorts has the potential that if you look at a bunch of problematic things, that it will push more of those problematic things in front of you. So we can realistically say not having an account on those platforms will reduce the likelihood of that happening.
00:09:34:23 - 00:09:51:21
Tama Leaver
But we also have to keep in mind, and this is one thing, again, I think parents don't understand necessarily, is that it won't be that you can't look at content, you can look at TikTok content, you can look at YouTube content without an account. So there's still a way to get that material. You just won't have it algorithmically fed to you in a feed.
00:09:52:01 - 00:09:55:23
Tama Leaver
That's that. The only real difference here, the only thing that ban's actually achieving.
00:09:56:00 - 00:10:01:22
Celeste Fourie
So tell me, who do you see as being the most vulnerable when this ban does take place?
00:10:01:24 - 00:10:23:14
Tama Leaver
So I think the the population that's going to find this ban most traumatic is going to be young, rural and regional teens in Australia who don't have the same sort of support network around them that at least in the cities, you've you've got all these other ways to find support. But if you're a queer kid in rural Australia, your only access to support is probably through the internet, through social media.
00:10:23:16 - 00:10:45:18
Tama Leaver
If you're accessing, mental health support, you're probably finding it through social media. So taking social media away means that we are immediately going to need other scaffolding to provide that support, and it does not currently exist. I've worked with headspace, for example, have gone we've got a really, you know, spiffy website. Teens don't find it. They find us through our social media accounts.
00:10:45:20 - 00:11:06:22
Tama Leaver
And I think for teens trying to learn other pathways to support when you don't, you've not experienced that before. It's going to be really, really hard. So I think the potential for trauma for especially rural and regional teens is going to be very high, and we're going to need to be really mindful of trying to support those kids at a time when they're going to feel like the rug is being pulled out from under them.
00:11:06:24 - 00:11:12:10
Celeste Fourie
So then I guess, how is this ban really going to be benefiting young people?
00:11:12:12 - 00:11:33:19
Tama Leaver
Yeah. So that is the million dollar question. And I'll be honest, I'm not convinced that there are that many things that it will achieve. Reducing that algorithmic amplification is the only obvious one. So it does mean that you can't end up on a sort of a spiral into the darkest domains of TikTok, of which we know there's some very problematic content and the same for for other platforms.
00:11:33:21 - 00:11:55:13
Tama Leaver
But beyond that, it's it's pretty hard to tell what this will achieve. I know the, the Prime Minister has said a number of times, oh, this is going to get kids outside kicking the ball. I don't think he's met a child in the last decade because kids are balancing sporting endeavours and social media. You can see kids organising their sports teams on social media before they go and kick the ball, for example.
00:11:55:13 - 00:12:15:15
Tama Leaver
So I think that that division is artificial and a bit silly, if I'm perfectly honest. I imagine one of the challenges, though, will be that young people are going to find other spaces, and if we take away the spaces that we know and recognise and have at least attempted to ask them to regulate, people are going to turn up.
00:12:15:15 - 00:12:30:19
Tama Leaver
The young people are going to find other spaces that we that are potentially darker, less known and more risk will be involved. So I think there are some as one door shuts, another door will open. And if that door leads to a darker space, that's probably where the kids are going to go.
00:12:30:21 - 00:12:59:00
David Karsten
Well, you mentioned earlier that we're looking at a perceived, course of action on behalf of government. But wouldn't you say as, as government, government actually needs to be doing something in response to community concern. And if this isn't the right strategy, what is the correct strategy? What is the right way forward in addressing these concerns?
00:12:59:04 - 00:13:10:05
Tama Leaver
Yeah. So you're absolutely right. Like, I think most Australian parents when surveyed think that this is better than nothing, which is completely fair because there is a real perceived challenge around social media.
00:13:10:05 - 00:13:15:03
David Karsten
And it would be fair to say also that there are parents in government making policy.
00:13:15:05 - 00:13:51:08
Tama Leaver
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think the communications minister has a number of young children, for example. So we know that people at the coalface are looking at their own kids and go, what do I want to do for them? So I'm not suggesting this is completely disingenuous across the board, but I do think the mechanisms of it, questionable. What I would prefer myself and what I know a lot of research has suggested is that rather than completely removing young people from social media, we do a better job of regulating the platforms and saying there should be age appropriate experiences, that if you're on TikTok at 13 or 14, you should have a demonstrably
00:13:51:08 - 00:14:12:03
Tama Leaver
different experience. There should be a whole lot of content that should never get to you. But you should then be able to get the benefits of creating, of engaging with people that your own age, of seeing content that is appropriate for you. And that should be basically the guiding principle across all of these platforms, that they are designed to be age appropriate experiences.
00:14:12:05 - 00:14:37:14
David Karsten
For technology in that digital space that is so ubiquitous and, and is, I guess, not hemmed in by borders. How would that be regulated and how would that be administrated, I guess? Does the Australian Government have, I guess, any jurisdiction over companies that are administrated in, in other, in other countries, for instance?
00:14:37:14 - 00:15:00:24
Tama Leaver
So, so yes, there is 100% the ability to regulate platforms locally, even if they're not headquartered locally necessarily. In the same way that we have all sorts of other regulation around all sorts of other forms of media. So I don't think the question of can is, is the problem? I think, to be honest, that it's tricky. It's hard to write good legislation to ask platforms to create age appropriate experiences.
00:15:00:24 - 00:15:24:24
Tama Leaver
We know, for example, that it's taken a number of years, but only at the end of next year. At the end of 2026, will we have an online privacy code for children that will kick in finally. We do know, though, that the design principle of safety by design is something that is well known, and that is the idea that we should perceive and test for risks before we turn platforms on, not wait for the platforms to be going.
00:15:24:24 - 00:15:41:21
Tama Leaver
And they go, oh, there were all of these harms we didn't imagine. I guess we'll do something about them, which is the current approach. So I think safety by design, which is something that is pushed by the Australian eSafety Commissioner, is a good starting place, but also giving children the respect of the rights that they're supposed to have.
00:15:41:21 - 00:15:56:06
Tama Leaver
We know that the, UN convention on the rights of the child gives, privacy, but also access to technology as a fundamental right that children should have. So how do we balance those rights? I think at the moment is, is an open question.
00:15:56:08 - 00:16:12:04
David Karsten
Yeah. I mean, digital equity is such an important factor in all of this is this is an entirely different world that is that is changing and moving forward at a breakneck pace. And, I guess, you know, devising policy for this. Oh, it's fraught, isn't it?
00:16:12:06 - 00:16:34:20
Tama Leaver
It is fraught. But it's also that there are good templates across the world. We just habitually find that policy ends up being written, addressing the platforms that exist today, without the wording that allows it. The platforms all come into existence ten minutes after you write the legislation. If we got slightly better at writing legislation, I think we could futureproof our legislation so that that it does address coming platforms.
00:16:34:20 - 00:16:51:17
Tama Leaver
Now, the big change, I guess, that nobody has really addressed or has not yet been able to is is generative AI. So we know that as we're talking about social media, we're actually ignoring the space that kids are exploring the most today, which is those generative AI platforms.
00:16:51:19 - 00:17:02:19
Celeste Fourie
Yes. Now that you do talk about generative AI, like what impact is that having on young people? And should these tools be part of that conversation? Yeah.
00:17:02:19 - 00:17:25:23
Tama Leaver
So again, that is such a big question. As I understand it, the legislation is too narrowly worded to include generative AI tools in this particular ban. I do think we desperately need to look at those tools properly and know that there are some very serious risks for young people that those tools can perpetuate. We know that, for example, the problem is sycophancy.
00:17:25:23 - 00:17:57:12
Tama Leaver
So the idea that these tools are dolled up to agree with you rather than provide the actually factually correct information is a big problem. Because if I I'm having a bit of a delusion about how important I am and these tools reflect that back to me, that can really, seriously damage my mental health. As as I'm growing. For example, we know that there are all sorts of examples of these tools say wildly inappropriate things because the generative because we don't know exactly what they're going to say, but we do know that they're not linked to truth, that link to what sounds plausible.
00:17:57:17 - 00:18:17:07
Tama Leaver
And that's a huge problem when young people are replacing Google searches with generative AI or ChatGPT searches. I think that the information landscape is getting, less and less healthy for young people. And if we're not investing the time and the resources to help scaffold young people's literacy around how these tools really work, then was a real danger.
00:18:17:07 - 00:18:28:15
Tama Leaver
They get off social media, they'll turn to generative AI tools and their experience of, good quality information is going to get worse and worse, not better and better as is imagined would happen.
00:18:28:17 - 00:19:01:17
Celeste Fourie
My social media has had a flood of AI content, all my news feed, everything. It's just lots of AI videos and it's becoming so much harder to distinguish. The difference between is that real? Is that fake? So it's it's a very sensitive space and I guess it would also be interesting to know, like, will there be a new platform in the future that's just generative AI content that's obviously not being taken into sort of this ban at all?
00:19:01:20 - 00:19:21:02
Tama Leaver
No, not at all. And actually that that exists in America now. So ChatGPT. Oh, sorry. OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT, released a platform called Sora, which is 100% AI generated videos that sort of looks like the bits of TikTok, like the, you know, the big orange cat family dad sort of tragic stuff. There are so many terrible.
00:19:21:02 - 00:19:26:08
Celeste Fourie
Famous people being shown on those Sora videos. It's crazy.
00:19:26:08 - 00:19:51:03
Tama Leaver
Yeah. So Sora does let you basically take existing celebrities and stick them into ridiculous scenarios. We've got, you know, Michael Jackson having a poker game with a giant fat cat. I mean, just so many things that you would think, why does that need to exist? And you can see that there is entertainment value in that, but it's when you can take a photo of yourself, stick it into one of those videos that the line between real and not becomes very blurred.
00:19:51:09 - 00:20:12:11
Tama Leaver
And I don't think we're doing the cultural work needed to help young people really have that critical literacy around. How fake could so much of the content that you experience be? And if we remove social media that at least has some real content, and we only have access to Sora and those AI generated feeds, it's hard to see how that would be a good outcome for young people today.
00:20:12:13 - 00:20:24:17
David Karsten
Sitting here and listening to this and looking at some of that content coming through of late, it it just just feels like it's so indicative of human nature to take an amazing piece of technology and do that with it. Right?
00:20:24:21 - 00:20:38:02
Tama Leaver
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this there's some great videos juxtaposing the rhetoric, which is this is going to solve climate change and cure cancer. And what are you doing? Oh, I'm releasing a, silly video platform to compete with TikTok because that's where the money is.
00:20:38:04 - 00:21:01:06
David Karsten
We're recording today, on the same day that it it was announced that OpenAI has, is launching its own search engine, Atlas. It's a big day and that threat that you talk about where the I guess the, the dilution or the, the narrowing of your research space is it's actually happening.
00:21:01:08 - 00:21:26:02
Tama Leaver
Yeah. For sure. And I have real concerns about generative AI being the engine underneath search, just because that's not how large language models are designed to work the way that they're designed to work is to give you a response that sounds meaningful. That sounds plausible, but there's no fact-checking. There's no doubt that a large language model does not understand whether what it's generating is true or false, simply that it sounds likely.
00:21:26:04 - 00:21:31:13
Tama Leaver
And I think if that's the underpinning philosophy for search, then I think we're in a lot of trouble.
00:21:31:15 - 00:21:47:02
David Karsten
On top of that, you’re fresh off a flight, where you, you've come back from, from, I guess, a summit of colleagues globally. Has Australia’s ban actually come up in conversation?
00:21:47:04 - 00:22:07:23
Tama Leaver
Not only has it come up in conversation, but it looks increasingly like that legislation might be a template that other countries are going to try and lift it and use. And I think given the global anxiety around young people on social media, you can understand why other countries are looking to Australia. I'm going, all right, well, if you can legislate this and make it work, then maybe we can too.
00:22:08:02 - 00:22:24:04
Tama Leaver
But of course it hasn't turned on yet, so we don't know if it's going to work. We simply know that the legislation exists. So I imagine those other countries will be watching Australia in December pretty intensely to see if what the legislation is supposed to achieve can actually happen.
00:22:24:06 - 00:22:41:09
David Karsten
I guess the big question we haven't asked is the other stakeholder in this equation, and that is the industry itself. How has the industry responded? Have big tech actually, looked at this legislation and come back with a response yet, Tama?
00:22:41:11 - 00:23:04:20
Tama Leaver
So I think there's a number of responses. One has been to look through the lens of the age assurance technology. So one of the last riders that was put on this legislation was that companies are not allowed to request government-issued ID as the primary form of identification of age, which of course makes it pretty complicated because young people's age is very hard to infer otherwise.
00:23:04:20 - 00:23:24:03
Tama Leaver
There was a massive technology trial, and it made it pretty clear that if I want to tell the difference between a 15-year-old and a 30-year-old, that's pretty easy to do. Of looking at faces or looking at your history of your interaction on a platform. But to tell the difference between a 15-year-old and a 16-year-old is incredibly hard to infer from your data, incredibly hard to infer from your face.
00:23:24:03 - 00:23:52:22
Tama Leaver
We know, you know, young people grow at different rates and just having stubble or not shouldn't be enough of a marker to tell me your age, for example. So I think there's a lot of technologies that the platforms have rightly said in this stuff's pretty immature. It'll be really hard to make those fine grained distinctions. We also know that there's been a spate of young people buying Halloween masks of old faces, because if you want to get around a facial recognition thing and you've got a mask on that makes you look 52, then job done.
00:23:52:24 - 00:24:12:12
Tama Leaver
So I think there is some challenges for the platforms. I also think that some platforms are better positioned than others. Meta. If you've been using Facebook for two years, it's pretty clear if you primarily interact with other 13 year olds or you primarily interact with other 40 year old. So I think there are some clear signals that can be drawn from the data there.
00:24:12:14 - 00:24:33:02
Tama Leaver
But I also think young people will find other ways around this. And I think the platforms continue to say, even if we put all of these technologies in place, you have to allow for the fact that unless we make them draconian, some kids are going to find ways around them. Now that sounds like a problem, but one of the weird things about this legislation is there's no success metrics.
00:24:33:06 - 00:25:03:09
Tama Leaver
We don't need to, you know, screen 80%, 90%, 20% of young people. We just know that the platforms have to make a good faith attempt. So if we don't have how many kids you need to have identified and booted off, then success is something that we can claim a bit like, you know, the giant Mission Accomplished banner at, that that America put up during the first, the very first bits of the, the, last Iraq war, for example, which we know was comical because the war continued for many months after.
00:25:03:11 - 00:25:15:11
Tama Leaver
And I think that's a bit like how this feels there will be success determined, not because of a number of people being booted off the platform, but because success is politically necessary. So we'll simply claim it.
00:25:15:13 - 00:25:30:16
David Karsten
But is there a theoretically, is there a a threat to revenue or is it entirely unrealistic? And and therefore we're not seeing big tech jump up and down from from that perspective, from a business perspective.
00:25:30:22 - 00:25:57:24
Tama Leaver
I think we're at a global moment where big tech is recognizing that there is real energy around legislation, and there is real energy about doing better by young people, which historically has not been a major focus. Now, what we've seen, for example, in other jurisdictions in America, for example, Instagram originally rolled out Instagram for teens and realized that even doing that was not sufficient, and it's now said that it's going to have a bespoke experience for under-13s.
00:25:58:02 - 00:26:19:14
Tama Leaver
That'll be a bit like PG 13 ratings that the only content you'll see is stuff that's been determined to be age appropriate. Now, that is actually a really major outcome for a platform that has oddly resisted doing that for the last 15 years. The fact that they've gone, ‘oh, well, it's happened in Australia. If we don't do more, it'll happen across the rest of the world’ at least is provoking change on these platforms.
00:26:19:20 - 00:26:26:11
Tama Leaver
But the sad thing then, is that Australian teens will be the ones not to reap the benefit, because they're simply not allowed to look.
00:26:26:13 - 00:26:40:23
Celeste Fourie
So what will we see on the platforms from the 10th of December? So those ones that have been honest about their age, when they try to access that, will the app have disappeared from their phone? Will it be a black screen? What will they actually see?
00:26:41:01 - 00:26:59:14
Tama Leaver
Yeah. So again, two months before it kicks in, we don't actually know. We know that there's been some guidelines released. The best answer would be that a young person turns up, logs in and the platform tells them how old they think they are, when they think they should be able to access the platform in the future. And what happens to their data.
00:26:59:14 - 00:27:16:14
Tama Leaver
So is there data deleted, or is there an option for them to at least if my entire visual life is on Instagram and I log in one day and it's gone, that would be really traumatic. So we're hoping that these platforms will at least allow a function where you can download your own data and take your your record with you.
00:27:16:19 - 00:27:36:02
Tama Leaver
That's best practice. It's not in the legislation. You have to do that. But the guidance released by the eSafety Commissioner at least recommends that's, a way to minimise the harm that young people will experience when they aren't able to access these platforms. But honestly, I fear every platform is going to be quite different. It's going to feel very different, and it won't be all at once.
00:27:36:02 - 00:27:53:06
Tama Leaver
It won't be December 10th. Everything's happened. It might be December 10th. You're off Instagram, but you're still a Snapchat user. All right. I'll just use Snapchat more than a few days later. You lose Snapchat. Okay. Well, I'll just stick to Tik Tok, blah, blah blah all Christmas Day. I'm off Tik Tok now, so it's a bit like ripping off a Band-Aid really, really slowly.
00:27:53:08 - 00:28:17:10
Tama Leaver
And I think while that to some extent is, is, while you're losing access to funny cat videos or whatever for people for whom this is their social world, that eventual ripping off could actually be really traumatic and extend that trauma over a long period of time. So I do think that the potential harm that this can cause, especially for the kids who genuinely don't believe this is happening to them, can be really significant.
00:28:17:10 - 00:28:23:19
Tama Leaver
And it's all just in the lead up to Christmas. So I think for some families, we're going to have some pretty grumpy kids around the Christmas tree this year.
00:28:23:19 - 00:28:52:00
David Karsten
Yeah, a little further to the industry response, you mentioned YouTube. Considering their response and in terms of the categorisation as a, as a social media platform, of course YouTube will argue, well, we're a video sharing platform primarily. Google, has threatened to sue if the ban takes effect. And, and, in response to that, Communications Minister Anika Wells responded by saying, we won't be intimidated by tech companies.
00:28:52:02 - 00:29:01:08
David Karsten
What will the relationship between tech companies and the Australian Government look like from the 10th of December onwards? Is it completely reshaped?
00:29:01:10 - 00:29:27:22
Tama Leaver
I think it's fair to say that there's always been a tension between profit driven tech companies and any national government. I do think that the ban is not making those relationships better. And I do think the case of YouTube and Google is going to be a really interesting litmus test, because not only was YouTube originally not imagined to be part of the ban, but in the discussion when the legislation was passed, there was a clear understanding that YouTube was exempt.
00:29:27:24 - 00:29:50:20
Tama Leaver
So the fact that that is now not the case, I think is, is inevitably going to lead to lawsuits. And I do think there is a case that YouTube can make that it's not experienced as a social media platform for most users. So, that there is some inevitable, interventions by the court that will come there one way or another.
00:29:50:22 - 00:30:13:01
Tama Leaver
But I also think what young people and parents need to remember is not holding a YouTube account does not prevent you seeing YouTube content. So young people, if you're, you know, if you're, K-pop fan and you are subscribed to 15 K-pop creators, you can still bookmark that creator's page. Come back to it every day and see if there's new content rather than it being algorithmically fed to you.
00:30:13:06 - 00:30:41:18
Tama Leaver
It doesn't prevent you seeing stuff. The only things that won't be visible is that material that is demonstrably for an older, age group, and then that won't be publicly available. But so much of what young people generally watch will still be there. The other thing, and the thing that really I don't think people understand, is that if I go to YouTube without an account and I watch three YouTube videos, it will already start to infer what it thinks I like just on the basis of that content.
00:30:41:22 - 00:31:01:01
Tama Leaver
So the algorithm is still doing something. It's just it refreshes each time I visit rather than having a long profile. And I think the potential for young people to go, oh, will I look at something dodgy today and have that experience? There'd be no record of it, but also no protections. The platform, if you're not logged in, has no way to infer that you might be a child.
00:31:01:03 - 00:31:11:17
Tama Leaver
You might be under 16, for example. So there's no protections that it can offer you. So I think there's, an obvious flipside to this that really hasn't been, I think, well thought through.
00:31:11:19 - 00:31:37:24
Celeste Fourie
I'm a YouTube watcher that doesn't log in. So, I watch all my YouTube videos as a guest. I don't even have a YouTube account, and my suggested videos are very accurate. Like if I open the app, they're all there. They're the ones that I usually watch. My preferences are. So basically, like you said. So for me it almost seems sort of like that ban isn't really going to impact that platform much.
00:31:38:01 - 00:31:47:01
Celeste Fourie
Do you think YouTube might change the way that people can interact and force everyone to create accounts?
00:31:47:03 - 00:32:09:24
Tama Leaver
I think it goes against the nature of YouTube for everyone to hold an account, because so many videos are shared outside of that experience, and I specifically think of, for example, primary school teachers who use YouTube videos, of course, knowing that the kids aren't going to have the accounts to watch it, but there are so many really important educational videos that to remove that pathway would be a significant loss.
00:32:10:05 - 00:32:31:07
Tama Leaver
So I don't think forcing everyone who's watching to hold an account would be a good outcome. And I think even the Australian Government will recognise that's not something they intended to achieve, because they have paid serious lip service to the idea that the kids can still have quality videos given to them. The problem, though, is that if you're not logged in, you can't have a paid account.
00:32:31:11 - 00:32:50:18
Tama Leaver
You can't pay to remove the ads unless you hold an account. So it means that young people inevitably will experience ads in contexts where sometimes in the past they might not have. And I think for me, that's a real negative, because anything that allows young people to circumvent the ads would have been a good thing.
00:32:50:20 - 00:33:13:21
David Karsten
Look, there's, oh, I don't know. I'm feeling like this discussion is not entirely positive, but it's… what can we offer that is positive? What can Tama… what can you advise parents and carers and the target group for this ban? What do you suggest, in terms of how to live with these new circumstances?
00:33:13:24 - 00:33:49:14
Tama Leaver
So let's zoom out. Let's, let's, for example, say what should be done in those three years, if really we create an extra three years for 13 to 16 year olds where they're not, in theory, on social media anymore. The best possible outcome there is a massive investment in digital literacy programs, that schools across the board and other programs allow young people to model, simulate and experience digital scenarios so that they can build that digital citizenship that they might have done anecdotally or socially in the past, so that when they're 16, they don't suddenly just get thrown at social media not knowing what to do.
00:33:49:17 - 00:34:08:24
Tama Leaver
So we really need to prepare them. And it's possible to make them really robust digital citizens if we invest enough in that educational program. We've seen some hints of educational investment, but nowhere near the scale needed to make that time really work. What I would say today, though, to parents is they need to be mindful of two things.
00:34:09:05 - 00:34:30:22
Tama Leaver
One is that their child or their children will experience this in different ways. It won't all happen at once and it may happen differently even if your kids are of a similar age. But it does not mean that the job is done. It does not mean that suddenly the internet is safe. You still have to have an open door to have a conversation with young people about anything they might experience.
00:34:31:03 - 00:34:53:11
Tama Leaver
It's also really, really important to emphasise that the law puts the onus on platforms, not kids. If kids find a way around this, they have not broken the law, and they should still feel comfortable that they can communicate with parents or other trusted adults about what they might experience online. If they see something that they find traumatic, they desperately should feel the ability still to talk to adults about that.
00:34:53:11 - 00:35:01:07
Tama Leaver
And if they lose that confidence that they can talk to someone, that would be the absolute worst outcome of this process.
00:35:01:09 - 00:35:16:06
David Karsten
Tama, I'm sitting here as a parent thinking it's tough to parent in this day and age, but oh my gosh, it must be so tough to be a teen and a pre-teen in this day and age as well. And really thank you so much for coming in and offering us an insight into this changing landscape.
00:35:16:08 - 00:35:24:06
Tama Leaver
Look, it's been my absolute pleasure, and I just hope we keep talking about it, so the teens and the parents know that something at least will change on December 10th.
00:35:24:08 - 00:35:25:24
Celeste Fourie
Thank you so much, Tama.
00:35:26:01 - 00:35:41:10
David Karsten
You've been listening to The Future Of, a podcast recorded on Whadjuk boodjar and powered by Curtin University. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it. And if you want to hear from more experts, stay up to date by following us on your favourite podcast app. Bye for now.