The Australian bush is unlike anywhere else on Earth. Meet the people bringing urban bushland areas back to life.
The Australian bush is unlike anywhere else on Earth. Meet the people bringing urban bushland areas back to life.
In this bonus episode, our host David speaks with Lesley van Schoubroeck, a volunteer with the Friends of Jirdarup Bushland. They talk about how the Friends are leading the restoration of the adjacent sandpit into a pristine banksia woodland – one of the few times a restoration of this kind has been attempted in the world.
Curious how you get plants to grow in sand? Listen to Part 1 of the TFO Urban Bushland.
Lesley is the Secretary and Community Education and Engagement Lead for the Friends of Jirdarup Bushland. She has lived in the area since 1980. She has experience in strategic policy leadership, organisational transformation and social justice, and is interested in applying this knowledge to support the not-for-profit sector.
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Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.auThe Australian bush is unlike anywhere else on Earth. Meet the people bringing urban bushland areas back to life.
Read the transcript: https://thefutureof.simplecast.com/episodes/urban-bushland-jirdarup/transcript
Host: David Karsten
Producer:Emilia Jolakoska
Writer:Zoe Taylor
Executive Producer: Natasha Weeks
Curtin University acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the First Peoples of this place we call Australia, and the First Nations peoples connected with our global campuses. We are committed to working in partnership with Custodians and Owners to strengthen and embed First Nations’ voices and perspectives in our decision-making, now and into the future.
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00:00:00:05 - 00:00:24:21
David Karsten
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better. I'm David Karsten. A few weeks ago, we published The Future of Urban Bushland. In the episode, I spoke with Doctor Michael Just, a plant biologist, about the restoration of Jirdarup Bushland precinct, where a sandpit is being transformed into a sanctuary.
00:00:24:23 - 00:00:43:08
David Karsten
We had such a great response to the episode that we're doing a follow up. In this bonus episode, I chat with Lesley van Schoubroeck, a volunteer with the Friends of Jirdarup Bushland. Lesley has enjoyed a successful career in public policy, so I started by asking her where she's been channeling her skill set in recent years.
00:00:43:10 - 00:01:06:17
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Into this lovely little piece of bushland which is 500m from where I live. That's got the Kensington bushland, which is one of the best in the city, pieces of Banksia woodland we have. And on one side it's got an old sanitary tip and on the other side it's got a sandpit which has been there since about 1937. The Town of Vic Park have been really good.
00:01:06:17 - 00:01:14:17
Lesley van Schoubroeck
That called it a big precinct called the Jirdarup Precinct and we want it to be wonderful. So my grandchildren's grandchildren will be able to hug a tree.
00:01:14:19 - 00:01:32:22
David Karsten
Lesley, the friends of of Jirdarup Bushland are restoring the sandpit to its former glory as a banksia woodland. I mean, that's a that's a very lofty ambition. The end goal is to replicate the bushland that's right next to the sandpit, the Kensington bushland. What makes this bushland so special and so worth fighting for?
00:01:33:02 - 00:01:54:00
Lesley van Schoubroeck
It's a place of inner city banksia woodland. It's a probably the best piece of inner city bushland that we have in Western Australia. It's never been built on. And the reason for that is it had, through the 1900s. It had a sanitary tip on one side, a rifle range on the other, an old sandpit on the other.
00:01:54:03 - 00:02:22:10
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So nobody wanted to go there, as you can imagine, particularly with the sanitary tip/ So it's been there. It's precious, and it's increasingly coming back to life. There's been a lot of pressure from increasing populations, but it's a bit more managed now. So you don't have people tramping through it. You no longer have people living there. I think you probably still signs of a few teenagers having a great afternoon away from there, but that that that's fine.
00:02:22:11 - 00:02:44:01
Lesley van Schoubroeck
That's fine . But it has. At our last count, we did, audit of the birds last year. But it's. Well, I might I say a delightful book on the birds, the 73 at the time. And after that, five new ones popped up their heads. So it seems to be a spot where the birds are coming, the town of putting cocky troughs.
00:02:44:01 - 00:03:12:16
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So there's water there. It's fairly fenced off. So they're safe from the dogs? They're not safe from the cats, but there aren't many. So it's a haven for birds, particularly. And it has, at our last count, over 250 native species. None of the native species that we've got are actually on the endangered list. I have heard I have no proof, but in 1909, there was a Queen of Sheba there.
00:03:12:18 - 00:03:15:03
Lesley van Schoubroeck
They have no proof. We have a painting, one in Vic Park.
00:03:15:03 - 00:03:16:15
David Karsten
That's an orchid every body.
00:03:16:17 - 00:03:25:14
Lesley van Schoubroeck
That's a very special orchid. The birds that are vulnerable there is the, cannabis cockatoo and the red tailed, cockatoo.
00:03:25:19 - 00:03:27:10
David Karsten
As they are everywhere. Really? I mean.
00:03:27:12 - 00:03:28:16
Lesley van Schoubroeck
The and it's a.
00:03:28:17 - 00:03:31:15
David Karsten
Lovely bit of bushland for them, right? Habitat. Yeah.
00:03:31:17 - 00:03:49:20
Lesley van Schoubroeck
It's interesting on the area is known for its red tail cockatoos. We have, one of our members was, she passed away a couple of years ago. She's in her late 90s, so. And she was a naturalist. And in her diary in 2007, she saw a red towel by cockatoo. So that seems to be the first time that was seen there.
00:03:50:00 - 00:04:12:03
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So they like recent arrivals? Yeah, right. But they have to come some way to feed. So it's a natural place. And there's reptiles. Not as many as we'd like, but they're reptiles. And, there are bats or a few mammals. There might be a quenda. Occasionally people see signs of a quenda. So it is a really natural piece of bushland.
00:04:12:03 - 00:04:20:20
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So it's so easy to get to, so easy for me to get to. I don't think anybody can not appreciate a piece of nature when they're just standing in the middle of it.
00:04:20:22 - 00:04:26:15
David Karsten
So you and some like minded residents have mobilised as a community group. What are you called?
00:04:26:17 - 00:04:33:01
Lesley van Schoubroeck
We're the friends of Jirdarup Bushland now, but it was mobilized in 1999 as the Friends of Kensington bushland.
00:04:33:03 - 00:04:36:13
David Karsten
The sandpit? Yes. Why is there a sandpit there?
00:04:36:15 - 00:05:00:07
Lesley van Schoubroeck
I have a theory. I have a photo from 1935 that shows it was definitely a sandpit in 1935. You can see a big hole in the ground from the overhead photos. And people got cameras out in 1935. Flew up and took photos. That's how you got photos in 1935. I think it was probably started when the nearby Senator death started, because I read in the newspaper and the newspapers always think about years.
00:05:00:09 - 00:05:20:18
Lesley van Schoubroeck
I always write that every night they put a foot of sand on the trenches that they had filmed. And where did they get the sand from? Well, there's a track from where the sand pit probably is. You couldn't see it because it was in Big Park in the photo. 1935 to the south, Perth and South. This big pocket like to share photos.
00:05:20:20 - 00:05:29:11
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So I think it probably started with the sanitary depot. And that's what they did because they had 10,000 leaky carts going down the hill every week.
00:05:29:13 - 00:05:35:06
David Karsten
I think Sherlock Holmes better watch his back because of the new. There's a new detective in town. Well done. Lesley. I think that's.
00:05:35:06 - 00:05:38:12
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Nothing like finding out when the sandpit started.
00:05:38:14 - 00:05:54:01
David Karsten
Now, Lesley that the Friends of Bushland have been planning this restoration for decades. It's been years in the making. But in 2023, the plans were at last given the green light by council. Look at what's happened since then. Were three years down the track.
00:05:54:03 - 00:06:13:08
Lesley van Schoubroeck
If you've ever worked in a large bureaucracy, you would have so much understanding for the people in the town of Vic Park because what they have been tasked with is letting a tender to do some earthworks, to put in some paths and that sort of stuff. They're doing it on land with I'm not quite sure what's in the base.
00:06:13:10 - 00:06:35:07
Lesley van Schoubroeck
They've got, people to consult. They've got plant things, and I've never tried to plant in that before, but this year the tender is going out. Last year the guys from Curtin, that's Michael Johnston, some of his team did some trial planting. They had to go to see whether or not the seeds would come out faster than the weeds and certainly the weeds one.
00:06:35:09 - 00:06:48:24
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So they've done a bit of plots and, and said some trial planting and there's an awful lot of that work in the procurement area. And I have much sympathy for them. Other people think they may have dragged their feet. I don't, I just know how hard it is.
00:06:49:01 - 00:06:59:07
David Karsten
Look for for listeners, you familiar with the way that bureaucracy works? Why is that? Can you tell us a little bit about your background, Lesley? What have you brought to the table?
00:06:59:09 - 00:07:19:22
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Well, after being a math teacher for several, many years, I joined the public sector and I was in there for quite some time. I was in there when instead of just going to buy stuff, you went through a procurement process, and when it gets big, it gets more and more complicated, which is theoretically a very good system.
00:07:19:24 - 00:07:30:07
Lesley van Schoubroeck
And so I worked as a senior executive in the WA and the Queensland Public Service for a long time. So letting tenders, getting people to do stuff for you. I'm very familiar with.
00:07:30:09 - 00:07:47:06
David Karsten
Well, as a, as, a community group, the friends of General Bush and I would be greatly advantaged by having someone with your inside knowledge of the process being part of this really long term campaign. I mean, this is this is sure it's a lesson in patience, but it's also a lesson in persistence, really, isn't it?
00:07:47:12 - 00:08:09:01
Lesley van Schoubroeck
It is. And it's a lesson in understanding how a government like the council and the staff and the community actually have to do it together. And you all take your different bits. At the end of the day, though, it's different being on the community side. It's actually the town and the university who actually have to do the work.
00:08:09:01 - 00:08:25:06
Lesley van Schoubroeck
And they've got to realize and cross all the T's. So, and they're, they're actually the ones who get all the money at the end of the day, they actually have to do it so we can campaign and do all of those things. But at the end of the day, you have to respect that. They are the ones who have to make some very hard decisions.
00:08:25:08 - 00:08:46:16
David Karsten
Lesley, that’s very diplomatic of you. And, but it also suggests that that having been on both sides of the equation, that really anyone that's involved in this or any organization, that is whether it's government facing or, or whether it's as a member of the public, it's all every organization is filled with people, right? It's essentially what it is.
00:08:46:18 - 00:08:54:22
David Karsten
Everyone is generally got the shoulders to the wheel, but have a slightly different role to play in making that will turn.
00:08:54:24 - 00:09:01:07
Lesley van Schoubroeck
And sometimes it's not just one wheel. Sometimes they're not even on the same axle. So it can get very tricky.
00:09:01:09 - 00:09:17:19
David Karsten
I don't know how far we can take this metaphor, but I'm willing to go to the finish line with it. Lesley. I guess with every forward, step, such as testing, and and trial planting, each of those have been a small victory, haven't they?
00:09:17:21 - 00:09:37:06
Lesley van Schoubroeck
They have been. I mean, I did notice the faces on the staff of the university and the town when they went to look at their little seedlings that had come up. And then they looked at the weeds. And, I mean, that's where it came. Quite interesting, because that wasn't last year was the year before, because we had some community members there as well.
00:09:37:06 - 00:09:55:18
Lesley van Schoubroeck
And I thought, oh, we'll just pull the weeds out. And this was an er, probably, less than 100m long and a couple of meters wide. And, you know, you've got eight hectares. You're not going to be able to do that on that scale. So you're looking at people. What is the best way to do this at scale.
00:09:55:18 - 00:10:17:23
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So those little seedlings sadly got lost. And then the next year they planted and the rabbits came there. So then we had to put rabbit proof fencing inside, got rabbit proof fencing, and then, the next stage the university did, because it's very much a scientific trial. What is the best way to plant things so that they will survive?
00:10:18:00 - 00:10:29:07
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Because there's no point of getting excited, planning lots of stuff, and then going back two years later and it's all gone and having to do it all over again. So it's, nothing like saying you do your planning well, and then it will work.
00:10:29:12 - 00:10:43:03
David Karsten
Small victories, on site. But then the big victory as far as, as far as funding. Yes, was announced, along the way in 2023. Can you tell us a little bit about that major moment for the restoration project?
00:10:43:05 - 00:11:00:16
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Well, the council went ahead on my estimate of what it would cost and even committing. I think I can say this is going to cost us like 1.5 million just to get the license in, and then stuff has to go and you have to give our mayor credit. She is a very great advocate for that piece of bushland.
00:11:00:18 - 00:11:14:22
Lesley van Schoubroeck
And between, the mayor and I, we were part of that. She did a video and got the Commonwealth government persuaded them to put in half a million, which will help the council actually get the paths and get the infrastructure in.
00:11:15:03 - 00:11:20:13
David Karsten
So that is the the wonderful persuasive powers of the mayor of Vic Park, Mayor Karen Vernon.
00:11:20:15 - 00:11:23:02
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Karen Vernon. Yes. You have to give her a lot of credit for this.
00:11:23:08 - 00:11:28:11
David Karsten
What is the overall lie? It is a test question because I want to see if you're on the same page with Michael.
00:11:28:14 - 00:11:51:19
Lesley van Schoubroeck
That's a good idea. There's what I would call a short term aim that by 2043, if you have an emerging banksia bushland across the 20 hectares, of that. So it'll look like the Kensington bushland. My aim is that in 2112 it will be thriving and my grandchildren's grandchildren will be able to see lots of big trees and hug them.
00:11:51:21 - 00:12:03:13
Lesley van Schoubroeck
And I pick 2112 because it's 200 years after the land was given to the town for community use. So, took them 100 years to destroy that spot, 100 years to redevelop it.
00:12:03:15 - 00:12:04:15
David Karsten
Very strange.
00:12:04:17 - 00:12:06:05
Lesley van Schoubroeck
I think so, absolutely.
00:12:06:11 - 00:12:11:06
David Karsten
Let's bring it back to now. Where are we at with the project? What? What's happening next? What are we looking at?
00:12:11:10 - 00:12:36:08
Lesley van Schoubroeck
I am fairly confident the contract to do the infrastructure will go ahead in 2026. That will happen. And so you'll see the people will see the bulldozers. And there's nothing like seeing bulldozers to make people feel like something's happening that's going to happen. And the and Curtin are going to do some planting, some trial planting. At what stage do you have community members coming in and do the planting?
00:12:36:08 - 00:13:03:03
Lesley van Schoubroeck
If you're doing a scientific approach to what works and what doesn't, you have to control what happens. And that's where as much as community members want to help plant, if it's a scientific experiment where you're actually doing some long time research, actually what works and what doesn't, if you're trying to do something that's never been done in the world before, goodwill is wonderful if volunteers are wonderful, but you actually have to put some rigor around it.
00:13:03:03 - 00:13:23:08
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So whether or not the volunteers get to do any planting this year is an open question. This sort of a conversation about we'll see what is possible. But at the end of the day, I think we can persuade our volunteers that if you want an outcome, the best outcome, you want the trees to grow and the plants to grow and get going.
00:13:23:08 - 00:13:37:12
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Let's listen to the scientists to work out how this would plant it. And there's lots of, I think, cutting students out there on their hands and knees. And I seem to, by volunteers, seem to find it much more enjoyable. And sitting in a lecture theater, I don't understand why.
00:13:37:14 - 00:13:49:08
David Karsten
Look, this really is a golden opportunity for collaboration between both Curtin and the community. It's something that really, could be a wonderful story down the track to tell.
00:13:49:10 - 00:14:10:05
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Yeah, we meet lots of students through that. One of the people who we hoped will volunteer a lot more down there is a Curtin student doing his doctorate on finding out where do you get the seeds? How is the best way to maximize collection of seeds? Because all the restoration that's happening and promise to happen do. You don't have the seeds, you can't grow the plants and you can't actually restore anything.
00:14:10:05 - 00:14:25:20
Lesley van Schoubroeck
It's not a question that most of us, you know, we just if we want seeds, we go to Bunnings and buy them or somewhere slightly more upmarket to buy them, but you actually have to have the seeds. So he's been out there with some of our Landcare people, and we have some brilliant people with great qualifications in Landcare.
00:14:25:24 - 00:14:37:03
Lesley van Schoubroeck
They really know what they're doing, and he's looking at one of the particular plants to see how it, when is the best time to collect seeds? So the seeds you get are most likely to survive?
00:14:37:05 - 00:14:47:23
David Karsten
Well, I think that's what we need to remember too. Is, is the seeds for success are most likely localized seeds that you can't necessarily transplant or import seed from other parts of the country.
00:14:48:00 - 00:15:09:08
Lesley van Schoubroeck
That's also really interesting thing because I was listening to a scientist, not that long ago, and she said that one of the problems, because the Kensington bushland is quite small. And so like any other population, you get inbreeding if you just keep using the seeds within this. So then and there aren't that many so are now using seeds.
00:15:09:08 - 00:15:29:05
Lesley van Schoubroeck
I think, Michael's group has said from 70km away, but so that you've got cos I yeah. Better genetic mix and you're drawing on a larger area. But you can't obviously Biobank says you can't import them from China. I don't have any.
00:15:29:07 - 00:15:30:21
David Karsten
Yeah. Not on to me yet.
00:15:30:23 - 00:15:35:17
Lesley van Schoubroeck
So it is quite a challenge. So and there are a few other students who are down there.
00:15:35:20 - 00:15:56:06
David Karsten
Leslie, we're talking about, I guess an academic contribution that that people can make. But what about, other members of the local community who are perhaps not at Curtin or just who, who are residents, who are concerned, residents in the area? How can they get involved at this stage of the project? You've said that there isn't too much planting going on, but are you planning for the future?
00:15:56:08 - 00:16:16:17
Lesley van Schoubroeck
We're always looking for volunteers to do all sorts of things. We've got they have people who are young and fit and logic down the hands, and these can practice. They're waiting in the Kensington bushland because they will be waiting in the sandpit coming up. They can practice their skills while I'm running events and walking paint, doing walks and talks with.
00:16:16:17 - 00:16:30:06
Lesley van Schoubroeck
They will be happening in the sandpit coming up. And, we're really looking at that intergenerational transfer of what we call, I call the collective collective knowledge. Our yeah, our fog of collective wisdom. I like to think of it holistic.
00:16:30:06 - 00:16:38:03
David Karsten
Congratulations to you and your team on the wonderful work you've been doing over many, many years. And thank you so much for coming in to talk to us about it.
00:16:38:05 - 00:16:39:17
Lesley van Schoubroeck
Thank you very much. Been a pleasure.
00:16:39:23 - 00:16:55:06
David Karsten
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