How can we build a more positive fitness culture that better supports women’s health?
It’s not uncommon for women to post carefully crafted exercise photos on social media to foster a culture of empowerment. But could this be causing more harm than good?
In this episode, Amelia is joined by Dr Madison Magladry and Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani to discuss how we can build a more positive fitness culture that better supports women’s physical and mental health.
Dr Madison Magladry: Twitter – @MagladryMadison
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani: Twitter – @ecthogersen, Web –pawresearchgroup.com
ABC: Tayla Harris AFLW photo could become landmark moment in Australian sport
ABC News: When the pursuit of fitness and exercise is a slog, how do we stay motivated?
Broad Agenda: How feminist is fitness culture
Decolonizing Fitness
Guardian: Man runs marathon on 7-metre balcony during French lockdown
Email thefutureof@curtin.edu.au.
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Music: OKAY by 13ounce Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0 Music promoted by Audio Library
You can read the full transcript for the episode here.
Intro (00:00):
This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their work is helping shape it for the better.
Amelia Searson (00:09):
Hello, I'm Amelia Searson. It's not uncommon for women to use social media platforms like Instagram to foster a culture of empowerment and motivation through carefully crafted photos, but could this be causing more harm than good? With the rise of fitspiration, hashtags and body envy, studies are starting to show it could be detrimental to women's physical and mental health. To discuss this topic with me today are two special guests. First, we have an adjunct post-doctoral fellow and cultural expert, Dr. Madison Magladry, and second, we have Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani, the co-founder of Curtin's Physical Activity and Wellbeing Research Group, who's going to provide health insights into this topic. Thank you both for coming in today.
Dr Madison Magladry (00:52):
You're welcome.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (00:54):
You're welcome.
Amelia Searson (00:55):
So Madison, can you explain the current culture surrounding women's fitness on social media platforms like Instagram?
Dr Madison Magladry (01:04):
Yep. I definitely can. What I've observed is I guess some cultural themes around authenticity, this idea that we need to present ourselves in a way that seems real. I think there's a really dominant narrative that social media is not real and our lives on social media are not real. And in a lot of fitness, cultural media, specifically Instagram, which is where I focus, there seems to be... trying to be a response saying that, "This is real, this is my body." And you can see things like I guess, a move towards trying to notice the imperfections of the body. Things like, "This exercise isn't for everyone. I have a stomach roll here or if I tilt my body in this way on Instagram, you can see that maybe I'm perfect. But if I tilt it the other way, I'll look worse or how people think worse looks like."
Dr Madison Magladry (02:07):
But it's really important to remember that authenticity is a set of practices. It's not natural or real, which I think a lot of this culture does emphasise. But it's important to realise that, yeah, it isn't natural. I think also that there is what a colleague of mine Akane Kanai writes about as a culture of 'spectatorial girlfriendship'. So she writes that girlfriendship is this kind of – and I'm using girlfriend in a heteronormative way, meaning two women that are friends, not a queer relationship... The kind of scripts that we see in terms of female friendships, like, complimenting each other and supporting each other, but also, being critical saying, "Maybe you shouldn't wear that outfit, it's not really flattering."
Dr Madison Magladry (03:04):
And so Akane Kanai writes that online this is done through digital communities and we can see this with the communities that social media influencers build around them. People like Kayla Itsines, for example, will ask her followers to give her their before and after selfies. And she compliments them on their journey. But this girlfriendship is conditional on these people purchasing her product and these people making a specific kind of commitment to perfection, even if they never reach it. So there's a lot of weird things going on, or maybe don't – maybe weird isn't the right word, but a lot of sort of seemingly paradoxical cultural themes.
Amelia Searson (03:54):
Yeah. That was really interesting to hear all about that. It's a very diverse sort of culture and it's very complex. It seems like on face value, you wouldn't really think so, but then when you start analysing, I guess, the psychology behind it and the girlfriendship, as you mentioned... Cecilie moving away, I guess, from culture for the moment and sort of looking more at the fitness side of things: women seem to be exercising less than men in Australia. Why do you think that is?
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (04:24):
Yes, that's correct. So the evidence points towards very consistent trends that women across the age spectrum are less physically active than men. But when we say physically active, that's not only in a fitness activities, it can include things like walking, lifestyle, activities, et cetera. But of course, sometimes the differences are greater in terms of sort of more structured exercise, so things like going to the gym, playing sport that are more structured rather than lifestyle. Women do a little bit better in terms of, not than men, but compared to other domains in terms of more lifestyle type activities like they do as part of their daily life. So why is that? There are a bunch of reasons, and it depends on which age group, which contexts that you actually ask those questions. So the barriers to young girls for example are very different from those who are retiring or older adults.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (05:20):
So, it's not possible to sort of across the board say, "These are the main reasons", but some of the things we know that we can divide it into sort of individual level factors could be attitudes, whether you believe that being physically active is going to actually provide you with benefits. And do you value those outcomes, for example? It could be to do with people's levels of confidence of being active – do they think they can master it? If they don't they are unlikely to do it. It could also be the social environment and your care responsibilities, for example. So we know that women are still the main carers of children. That obviously is another barrier. So some of them are time and time is often noted as a barrier, but there probably underlies some sort of more deeper entrenched attitudes.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (06:10):
I think as girls grow up as well, and even girls who start playing sport we know that there are a lot of barriers that go against them continuing into being physically active adults. So girls, for example, who start sport as children drop out at this disproportionate rate to men, and that has to do with the culture, with the fact that as girls, they grow up, and their bodies develop. They go further away from that kind of athletic ideal, biologically, and they experience a lot of appearance concerns that will actually act as a big barrier to them continuing more lifelong and men are celebrated more for engaging in competition, generally speaking, as well.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (07:03):
So, there's a whole bunch of reasons. I mean, there are other things like the environment as well. Is the environment conducive to being physically active? Are your neighbourhoods safe? Women might have different perceptions of safety to men as well. So it's really quite complex. And I guess the bottom line is that you're likely to take part in a behaviour-like exercise, if you consider the benefits to outweigh the number of costs. And unfortunately, probably for a lot of women, it doesn't for all those different kinds of reasons.
Amelia Searson (07:39):
Yeah. I definitely have many relatives who who are massive footie fans, love footy, but they don't perceive women's football to be any way on the same level. They don't take the time to watch it or show any interest in it. So that's yeah, really interesting.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (07:56):
That's right. And I remember, when I was a child, I was really into soccer or what we call 'soccer' here, 'football' back home. And I was literally the only girl who was playing soccer and I loved it, but these social norms for girls were like, "Oh God, we don't want to play against a girl." And that has changed, that perception, I think, but you really had to be super determined and I really loved it. And when you love doing something, regardless of all the external constraints that will really help you continue.
Amelia Searson (08:27):
Well, there was that female football player who was photographed with her leg up and everyone was, yeah, everyone was focusing on that rather than, the fact she was an incredible footballer.
Dr Madison Magladry (08:40):
Tayla Harris.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (08:41):
That's right. And that's the thing actually at the end. And that's why body image concerns for women are so much greater than they are for men and women are judged on how they look rather than what they can do. And men tend to be judged on what they can do. So I think, we grow up wanting to – how can I best put it? We need to conform to those societal expectations. So it becomes all about how we appear rather than what we can do. And our research has also shown that in terms of motivation, it's a powerful motivator to improve your appearance for women even more so than it is for men, but it doesn't last. That's the problem. It doesn't lead to lifelong engagement. So we need to change that. We need to take a different approach.
Amelia Searson (09:37):
Definitely. And Madison something that's, I think you mentioned quite a bit when the topic of feminism comes up, is that, women shouldn't be bringing other women down. I've definitely noticed if I see a woman posts a photo at the gym, wearing makeup and showing their body, some people will label it as fake and very constructed. But on the opposing side, if a woman is particularly muscular at the gym, I've heard people refer to them as unnatural and disgusting even. What do you think needs to happen to foster a more inclusive and supportive environment on social media?
Dr Madison Magladry (10:15):
There's so much happening in this question. I love it. I think I want to address first this idea that women need to support other women. And while I absolutely agree I think the onus should not be on the criticising woman, but on patriarchy and the misogyny that we internalise and put on to other women. So it's not saying, "Hey girls, if you want equal rights, you need to stop criticising each other." The enemy is still patriarchy or the system rather than the individual. I think it's interesting because this idea of a supportive fitness culture is really complicated. I think I would be, I don't know if I could suggest anything productive from a place where I'm critiquing what's currently going on. What I do find though, is that there is definitely this practice of yeah, critiquing all kinds of people, like different archetypes or different scripts of gender and also scripts of power, right?
Dr Madison Magladry (11:23):
So, a lot of women that you were talking about – the more muscular women – are often celebrated in certain circles, things like CrossFit, for being muscular. Whereas that same circle might deride a woman who only focuses on cardio, the cardio bunny, the cardio queen and conversely someone who might focus on a more feminine or traditionally feminine look might see muscular women as masculine or ugly. But it's important to remember as well that as much as it is an act of discipline to critique bodies that are not conforming to yeah, pre-scripted gender roles, complementing bodies for conforming to these scripts is also a form of discipline. For example, and this is a little personal maybe but I know my family often comments when I've gained or when I've lost weight and they say, "You look really great, well done."
Dr Madison Magladry (12:32):
They won't call me out for gaining weight. They won't say, "Maddie, you look fat." "Thank you." But I started to realise that and this is not just personal anecdote; I started to realise that I was getting this little hit of confirmation, I guess, that I'm doing something right when I'm losing weight. And just the same on a social media level saying that someone looks good at this weight makes them think, "Yeah, okay. I need to be this weight. And this is where I'm going to get compliments for my body. If I lose weight, I might not get told, or if I have a different body shape or type, I might not get told, this is horrible, you're ugly or fat or whatever. But I won't get the compliments that make me feel good."
Dr Madison Magladry (13:23):
So I think one of my ideas for making fitness culture more supportive is to go away from what people look like, what bodies look like, to what they can do. However, that's not a panacea, that's not a cure all. And I know that saying, focusing on what a body does can also enter into ableist discourse, where we can say that, one person because of their biology, because of the way culture and society positions their bodies to be, have access to all of the kinds of activities that won't apply to other people. And we need to be careful about how we measure value in that sense. So we really need to be interrogating the meaning of kinds of activity and trying to go away, I think, from analysing bodies and looks.
Amelia Searson (14:17):
Hmm. Yeah. That's really interesting. So you think there needs to be more of a maybe case-by-case sort of navigation surrounding when you comment on someone's Instagram post and like, to really reflect on the implications of what you're saying, maybe?
Dr Madison Magladry (14:33):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's a good rule of thumb to always be critical of what you say, how it's going to be received, being mindful that, if your intention is to pay someone a compliment and you're saying, "Well, I actually wanted to say something nice to you", that might not be how it's taken and that's okay. You just need to work with that. Yep.
Amelia Searson (14:55):
And Cecilie, how do you think motivation comes into this and what main factors affect motivation do you think, and what are some of the best practices in your opinion to sustain it in the long run?
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (15:09):
Yeah, big question as well, I was doing a whole research program on this. So when we think about motivation, it's about the direction and the amount and the what, the reasons why we're doing something. So that's incredibly important. So it's about the direction and intensity of effort. And if we have a sufficiently strong desire to do something, we'll do it. And if, as I say, if we can perceive more pros than cons. The problem is that motivation is not only about how much motivation you have, it's the quality of your motivation that's important. So a lot of the research that we're doing is looking at this idea that certain types of motivation are quite low quality. You can have very high levels of motivation that are very low quality, and you can have high levels of that, that are a higher quality.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (16:05):
So for a lot of women, especially, their main motivation is about improving appearance, wanting to lose weight not for old women, of course not, but it's a pretty big, big trend to, for men as well and other non-binary people as well. However, the problem with that type of motivation is that it's very dependent on sort of socially sanctioned issues. So, we want to... So if I want to exercise because it improves my appearance is not really in my control. Right? Direction comes from outside. It doesn't come from within me. So I want to do it because I want other people to think I look good. Not because I derive pleasure from it, for example. So when we talk about, so we're talking about extrinsic and more self-determined types of motivation.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (17:03):
So what we're trying to do in our research is we might come from a place of, "Yes, I want to improve my appearance", or "I want to lose weight, et cetera", but we want to get people to the point of saying, "Actually, I'm enjoying this". Even, "I'm enjoying spending time with the people I'm doing this with".
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (17:18):
So fostering what we call sort of a sense of both competence feeling, we can master something, feeling that we have fun with it, or at least that we can identify the more intrinsic benefits of doing it such as, it will benefit my health, for example, not so much my appearance, but because I have more control. So, you have more control over those high-quality motivations. And I think we are so caught in that sort of trap of "I'm doing this because then people won't put me down. I won't feel ashamed of myself". Those don't lead to consistent exercise behaviours, but often when it becomes compulsive it doesn't lead to healthy patterns of exercise behaviour going forward. So we need to help people change that.
Amelia Searson (18:09):
Yeah. And I suppose something that definitely comes into or under motivation is the concept of fitness influencers. So Madison, what role do fitness influencers have in this whole narrative, do you think?
Dr Madison Magladry (18:25):
Well, I think increasingly we're starting to trust influencers as a source of authority for things on particularly our health and wellbeing because of the massive influx of information that we get from every corner of the world, every media source about what is good to do. So we start, instead of placing or identifying authority in terms of who is scientifically qualified, who has these credentials in this area, we tend to go more towards emotional attachments or even physical attachments. We find a person attractive and so we listen to them or we think they're really funny or cute, or they have nice dogs. And this is similar, I think, to the way we might interact with our friends, like we trust our friends for advice and influencers try to construct that kind of intimacy that you might have with a friend.
Dr Madison Magladry (19:26):
Although, of course it's very different. So increasingly we are looking to influencers for advice. This is difficult to say... Influencers are constructed, right? They are real people, of course, they're flesh and blood. They might have different, slightly different names or have changed names, but we can assume that they're real people but like all texts, they are constructed. They're constructed through visual language. Things like the images that they post, the videos they post, the editing that happens, actual language or what we know is actual language, how they speak to you and what kind of tones, how they address us, the viewer. And this is about fostering trust and encouraging, I guess, that sort of intimate connection. What's important to remember is that not all influencers are experts.
Dr Madison Magladry (20:28):
A lot of them use anecdotal evidence to support things that they're giving advice on. For instance, I've been doing a lot of research on quarantine routines, both fitness and sort of wellness in general. And these people will tell you with all seriousness and probably very good intentions that, "I really like to be hydrated. I find it's really useful." And we find that or, I say 'we', it's a generalisation, but 'we' tend to find that more convincing to us than a doctor saying, "You need to be hydrated because it's going to do this and this to your body." But it's really important to note that, yeah, it's maybe not the only authority. And of course as texts, influencers provide and reinforce dominant narratives of femininity, of class, race, et cetera. Again, the visual language tends to be quite glamorous, tends to be quite aspirational. You, the viewer, wants to be like them even if they're not perfect. And that is part of the charm, right. Part of the authenticity. Yeah, I think that's...
Amelia Searson (21:49):
Yeah. And off the top of your head, do you know any fitness influencers who are promoting a more positive culture?
Dr Madison Magladry (21:57):
I do. I think this is also an interesting question because I struggled to answer it, to say with definitive authority that there is a better influencer or a better fitness culture. But yeah, it comes down to how you define 'positive'. If you're talking about, more inclusive, more personalised, more authentic, these are all constructs, they're all sets of practices. So it is, it really depends on like yeah, cultural norms. Having said that, ones that I find useful... I'm very critical about the system in which fitness culture is organised, capitalism colonialism yeah, patriarchy, heteronormactivity, et cetera; I like Decolonizing Fitness on Instagram. He's very aware of how different bodies, different identities are addressed and constructed through fitness culture, especially fitness media and engages with sides of fitness that we don't often see things like how to work, how to be fit or how to do fitness if you are in constant pain. How to do fitness if you have disabilities, how to deal with it, if you go to a fitness class and you're the only non-white person in a room, that kind of thing. I also like Susanna Barkataki. I think to call her a fitness influencer would probably be doing her a disservice. She is a yoga practitioner and her social media presence is dominantly about critiquing I guess, mainstream perceptions of yoga. She talks about different kinds of language used in yoga. She does a whole master class on critiquing the word 'namaste' for example. So I think what I define, I suppose, as more positive would be cultural influencers that are very critical of the systems not so much the individuals, but definitely the systems involved in fitness culture.
Amelia Searson (24:11):
Hmm. That's really interesting. And that lends well into the next question that I would love both of your perspectives on. For those who don't identify as young, white, cisgendered women, what challenges do they have within the fitness culture?
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (24:30):
Certainly, we know that overall the physical activity levels tend to be lower. So there's obviously something going on about the different sort of barriers that people might experience. And I guess we, again, we're talking about sort of a structured exercise, I suppose, to lifestyle physical activity that can be done anywhere, et cetera; because I guess the gym environment is quite of a gendered type of environment and it can be threatening for even some men and certainly women. And if you are non-binary, I'd imagine that'd be even greater. So I think issues surrounding that would probably be a big, would it be a big reason for that.
Dr Madison Magladry (25:10):
I'm also, I am non-binary, so I can speak to my anecdotal experience a bit. There are a lot of barriers and even in environments that claim to be women's only, and might seem outwardly a bit safer. They still either erase your identity, they don't acknowledge you. Even simple things like if you're filling out the form and there's no option for the gender that you see yourself as. What else? Yeah. So there also a lot of assumptions about what I want to look like, what non-binary people look like in general, what they can do. I think a lot of places that I've gone to do make an assumption that because I'm entering a women's space, even though it says it's explicitly inclusive to non-binary people, maybe I don't fall into their idea of what a non-binary person looks like.
Dr Madison Magladry (26:08):
So they'll immediately treat me as a woman. And this particular place tends to love rhetoric around the body as gender. So, they talk about the womb, they talk about the 'Yoni', they talk about body parts as are the hearts of our femininity so to speak, which is really irritating as a non-binary person, because that's not how I make sense of my body and my gender. However, I think the increasing shift towards inclusivity... Inclusivity also means further labelling, further commodification. For example, this place that I'm talking about which I won't name, says that the space is for women, and it spells women with an 'X', which is supposedly an inclusive term to refer to trans women and non-binary people.
Dr Madison Magladry (27:06):
However, that is pretty much the start and finish of their inclusivity. There's no real efforts to question some of the language they use. And even other things, just like the kinds of programmes they run. However, it is part of their brand that they are inclusive. So it kind of doesn't matter if they're actually welcoming to non-binary people or trans people. It seems to be enough. I mean, it isn't enough, but it seems to be enough as a business to brand yourself as inclusive. Yeah.
Amelia Searson (27:46):
Sort of like a virtue signalling, tick the box.
Dr Madison Magladry (27:49):
Yeah, exactly. And you go there and you notice that there are, I mean, and I'm making assumptions here, but I, there are very few people I would say, who are actually, there's no one, I would say that isn't cisgender. However, that is making an assumption. Of course, non-binary people don't have to look a certain way and I don't know that. Having talked to the owner I think I'm the first non-binary person that's ever given feedback about the way that this particular place addresses me and constructs me.
Amelia Searson (28:23):
Would they take that feedback onboard, do you think?
Dr Madison Magladry (28:27):
They seemed to, but only certain teachers, only certain staff members, which is a little disappointing. But it's not my job. And I think that it's irritating with those kinds of places. It does seem to be the burden on the complaining person, 'The Other' to ask, to be catered for, which often means that we just leave.
Amelia Searson (28:53):
Yeah. It's not your responsibility to educate every single person on the planet. Like-
Dr Madison Magladry (28:58):
Yeah. Exactly.
Amelia Searson (28:59):
People have to take it in their own hands.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (29:00):
I think, talking about motivation as well: what motivates us is seeing others like ourselves being physically active. If you are a non-binary person going to a gym, you don't see anyone. Not that you can tell, but you know what I mean? If you don't see someone like yourself engaging in it, you're less likely to do it. So it's not surprising that there's this sort of negative cycle of – people don't do it because they don't see others that they can identify with doing that. So it's sort of the negative cycle, isn't it?
Dr Madison Magladry (29:32):
Yep.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (29:33):
And it's the same for other people, older adults. You see more and more in the gyms, for example, which is great. We didn't use to see that so much, but you see more and more of them. So they kind of tend to come in groups, don't they?
Dr Madison Magladry (29:48):
Mhm.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (29:48):
Have certain sessions, that sort of thing helps. I'm not saying that there should be a non-binary session as such. I don't know!
Dr Madison Magladry (29:54):
I don't mind. I would like it.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (29:56):
Yeah. Maybe some people would, maybe others wouldn't, I'm not sure-
Amelia Searson (29:59):
Yeah true.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (29:59):
... but there could be, there could be ways of working around it or...
Amelia Searson (30:04):
At least there's an option there.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (30:05):
Yeah. Exactly.
Dr Madison Magladry (30:06):
Exactly. The place that I go to that I'm talking about very covertly has also floated the idea of having a workshop dedicated to women in larger bodies. And yeah, some people might like that. Some people might not, but I think it is about having the option. But also, the staff, I think is important. Like it's not enough that the participants are diverse genders are diverse bodies, ages, races. It's really telling when a place that markets itself as inclusive has all white, cis, heteronormative staff members, women in their staff.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (30:48):
And I think that's also differences from what I observe from going to the gym. You do see gay men, who are quite overtly gay. And I think there's more of a culture of gay men-
Dr Madison Magladry (31:01):
Absolutely.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (31:02):
... attending gyms. And it seems to be quite well accepted these days, but so it's quite interesting. It's depending on, when you talk about non-binary, it depends on sort of who you're looking at, right? Different groups have different challenges it seems as well. So not sort of treating everyone who are non-binary or whatever the same way is also important to consider. But I think that's a great idea about making it easier also for people who are non-binary to work in these places because they are role models at the end of the day, aren't they? So I think that's a good idea.
Amelia Searson (31:38):
Yeah, definitely. And obviously, this year has been crazy. We've had a global pandemic, which continues to rage through many countries. What do you think the impact of the pandemic has been on fitness culture? I know as you were saying, people are doing quarantine routines, what are your thoughts on that?
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (31:59):
Well, we know, I mean, from physical activity data, that those who used to be sufficient, physically active – we can talk walking here, so in terms of step count data, it has gone down worldwide. So there has been a reduction. For people who aren't active, there hasn't been any change. So overall it's gone down for sure, which is interesting. It's slightly different when you're talking about the fitness culture. And anecdotally, I was also using, exercise videos and you're trying to find your way of finding some that you actually enjoy following. And there are some that are absolutely terrible. I did half of it. I was like, "Oh, I can't stand this woman. I've got to find another one." So it's quite interesting how people sort of navigated that environment I think. Because even at some point, when everything was closed down, even going out for a walk was a bit stressful, I found, maybe I'm just a bit anxious, but we had to go two metres around people and stuff. So I was like, "Oh, I just want to be inside then doing something." And then actually finding that appropriate role model, exercise lead was really hard.
Dr Madison Magladry (33:07):
Yeah.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (33:08):
Wasn't it?
Dr Madison Magladry (33:08):
Yeah. I agree. Because you are looking for, not only to replace the physical aspect of activity in your home here, looking to replace a social aspect. So you do have to look for someone that you like. I often I used Yoga with Adriene when I was at home. And her whole thing is addressing us as a community, right? Like all our viewers, we're not just discrete viewers watching her. We're her friends and we're each other's friends, we're a community in ourselves. Except we're not, really. I'll never know these people. But it can give some people great sense of belonging to know that other people are engaging with similar activities in similar ways. I think overall we've seen this huge increase of mediated intimacies online – not just activity, but things like eating together online, Zoom, in all its myriad forms. ASMR, all kinds of things that we're using to relax and cope with stress. And there are all of these new articulations of authenticity.
Dr Madison Magladry (34:21):
But there's this really interesting wave of acknowledging the illusion of perfection. Specifically I think in quarantine a lot of the people that I follow, the fitness influencers said, "Look, I'm not going to lie to you. This is really hard. Some days I haven't been able to do it." Because on the one hand, we also saw this huge wave of "Be productive. Quarantine is no reason to lose control of your life. You need to discipline yourself, keep on top of it", which is really harsh. And a lot of us don't like it. So it is comforting to hear someone say, "You can relax." But even being told that again is a kind of discipline, I think, and is a kind of, I don't want to be cynical to say 'promotional tactic' here, but again, this intimacy and this authenticity is conditional.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (35:16):
Yeah. I think it's interesting also with the social aspect. Many people engage in exercise activities for the social benefits that it provides and may not even be about the actual exercise for some people. It's just a means of getting together with others like themselves and having fun, et cetera. And obviously that was very much challenged during COVID as well, and think beyond the sort of fitness influencers, the stories you hear, which just make you feel guilty about not doing enough. There was the man in Italy (error: the man lived in France) who ran a marathon on his seven-metre balcony.
Dr Madison Magladry (35:50):
I know.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (35:50):
What are the realistic expectations we're supposed to aspire to? It's just ridiculous.
Dr Madison Magladry (35:56):
Yep. Absolutely.
Amelia Searson (35:58):
It's important to know your limitations and all that, I suppose.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (36:00):
Yeah, set realistic expectations. And I think the other thing from a psychology point of view is that what challenged people who were in the habit of going to the gym or whatever, go for runs and whatever they might be doing, obviously that habit was sort of broken. So now it's going to be really hard or for some it might not be as hard, but for a lot of people, it'd be hard getting back into that. So a habit infers that you're doing something without even thinking about it, it's just part of your daily life. And obviously that was all interrupted. So that's going to make it really hard for a lot of people to get back into it as well.
Amelia Searson (36:35):
Yeah. And looking into the future, what can all of us, both those who identify as women and those who don't, what can we all do to help promote a more positive women's fitness culture, do you think?
Dr Madison Magladry (36:49):
I think my response is, again: be really critical, understand the systems that fitness culture is embedded in, understand how patriarchy makes sense of bodies, and understand how heteronormativity, post-feminism, ableism and capitalism makes sense of and uses bodies and uses value on those bodies as well. I would be really careful of judging individual actions of, or practices because this is not the issue. We're not saying that "This person needs to do that instead of this". Again, I'm seeing the enemy, if there is one, as the systems of power that govern what we get to do and how we get judged for it.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (37:46):
Yeah. I think that's very important. And I think that can partly also be reflected in what people do. And one of the things that we know is that if you're doing something because you identify with it, it reflects your deeper values – you know, being a good person – focus on what you can get pleasure from rather than, and it goes back to what you said Maddie, about appreciating the body for what it can do rather than what it looks and understand the limitations of that. But even within it's all relative, right? So if you're in a wheelchair, that's all the things that your body can do.
Dr Madison Magladry (38:24):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (38:26):
So I think that's really important. Some other research that we've done recently, and we've got some interesting results, is about trying to increase your levels of self-compassion. So being kind to yourself, and it's a bit about body appreciation and appreciating what it can do, but it's all about being kind to yourself, understanding that other people have similar experiences to you. You're not the only one who's judging yourself and just being mindful of how you judge yourself. You wouldn't judge other people the harsh way that you judged yourself. And just trying to think about those things.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (39:01):
And there's a campaign we did some work on with a student actually recently, which was just really interesting. I don't know if you've heard of This Girl Can, which is an exercise campaign. There's not much evidence behind it, but it basically uses images and videos of girls, often girls who are different ethnicities, different gender. I'm not sure whether they are different non-binary, actually, thinking about it. I need to check that. And different weights, et cetera. Just showing the reality of exercising: sweaty, wobbly bits, and sort of normalising that. And normalising girls and women having fun doing it and mastering different skills.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (39:42):
So I think the other thing is: if you learn something from an activity you're doing and it challenges you physically, mentally, whatever, you're going to be more focused on that. That's going to help you keep going – as opposed to being focused on "How do I measure up to other people?" And you look at your improvement in relation to yourself. Don't think about other people. Think about what have you now managed to do, how you've learned, how you are better than you were, not in terms of your appearance, but in terms of what you can do, et cetera.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (40:18):
Going back to that campaign, we found that ... exposure to that campaign about three times over a few weeks actually increased women's levels of self-compassion, which is quite incredible given that it is a very sort of strong determinant of mental health, et cetera. So, even just exposure to images and videos that, and we did sort of very tightly controlled study. So that was really quite encouraging, so it suggests that getting exposure to more realistic images and focusing on the fun and focusing on the social aspects, etcetera, all those things can actually benefit. So, yeah.
Amelia Searson (40:59):
Yeah. Well, that's all we have time for today. Thank you, Madison and Cecilie for joining me and sharing your vast knowledge on this topic. It's been really, really interesting and eye opening to hear your thoughts on it. Where can people go to find out more about what you both do?
Dr Madison Magladry (41:18):
They can follow me on Twitter: @MagladryMadison. I'm sorry that, that's confusing, but if you type in 'Madison Magladry', I'll come up too. I think that's pretty much it. Or my Curtin staff profile.
Professor Cecilie Thøgersen-Ntoumani (41:33):
Yeah. So Curtin staff profile is the one for me as well. I am also on Twitter @ecthogersen and our Physical Activity and Well-Being Research Group has its own website as well. I think it's pawresearchgroup.com. It's embarrassing. I suddenly can't remember. It's easy enough to find though.
Amelia Searson (41:54):
And thank you for taking the time to listen to The Future Of. This will be our last episode for 2020. Given all that's happened this year, we want to wish you an especially safe and happy holidays and look forward to welcoming you back to our next episode in January 2021. As always, if you'd like to get in contact with us, you can send us an email at thefutureof@curtin.edu.au. And if you liked what you've heard, please subscribe and leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Bye for now.